I would have never guessed that would come into consideration for ratings but nice to know their official thoughts anyway. Thought, PEGI was much clearer about their system backing it up with facts.
So I Scrapped a Tomodachi Life Feature, But Wanted to Share This Anyway
We could have had a Harvest Life game with same-sex relationships? Why am I just hearing about this now?
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't? Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there. I'd guess that a sexual situation involving whatever group would be treated as a sexual situation by the raters, but just having a gay couple not even having sex might be called a sexual situation in the ratings, just because it's not a common enough experience to most people right now to not bring up sex.
I don't think you've thought about this too hard.
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't? Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there. I'd guess that a sexual situation involving whatever group would be treated as a sexual situation by the raters, but just having a gay couple not even having sex might be called a sexual situation in the ratings, just because it's not a common enough experience to most people right now to not bring up sex.
This just in: LGBTI couples have a relationship, it's not all about sex
Next
I don't trust the ESRB's statement farther than I can throw it.
America still has an overall negative view of homosexuality. It's better than it used to be, but homophobia hasn't gone away. It's just gotten more covert.
Just like racism tbh. And your thoughts about the ESRB's statement mirrors mine.
That said, I really don't get why the game not supporting homosexual relationships is that big of a deal; I'm also assuming there's a lot more to the situation than what I know/stated.
lol
@hawkerace: I don't get it. Did he spell his name wrong?
@patrickklepek This is pretty damn interesting, good work Patrick. Would it be possible for you to reach out to the Australian ratings board? I'd be interested in knowing how my country handles things.
"It's interesting how nuanced the PEGI answer was compared to the ESRB, no?"
The ESRB answer sounds like your standard American PR soulless response which contains as few words as possible.
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't?
Absolutely not, but it's (unfortunately) understandable why you'd have that reaction.
To give a terribly narrow and condensed version of history; in modern times, when homosexuals began to try and live openly as they naturally are (as opposed to living false hetero lives as they were tragically forced to do in the preceding millennia) they were widely demonized as sexual perverts and predators who want to corrupt the (assumed to be all straight themselves) youth. They were made out by those who feared them to be sexually insatiable. Of course, that was all utter nonsense, but the effects are lasting and that very same misguided fear of gay folks is still prevalent today. So as you said, people view homosexuals in an inherently sexual light, but it's just the result of history and ignorance.
Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there.
So I'd say that this attitude stems from those skewed opinions I mentioned above, but really, there's no truth to those concerns. If a parent can explain seeing a man and a woman together, they can then easily explain a same-sex couple, as there is no practical difference (aside from that parent's own unease about them for whatever reason). Explaining anything to a child can be complicated, but if I was asked, "What are they doing?!?" by a kid who saw a man and a woman kissing OR a same sex couple kissing, I could easily just respond, "They love each other so they show it by kissing.". Simple. And it works perfectly no matter what the genders or orientations of the people are.
...I really don't get why the game not supporting homosexual relationships is that big of a deal; I'm also assuming there's a lot more to the situation than what I know/stated.
This is the video from Tye, a NeoGAF user, which started the whole thing. It should clarify the situation for you:
For those interested in CERO's take on the issue, I actually did some independent research into various Japanese resources for Patrick and emailed him my findings. It was originally meant to run as part of that Tomodachi Life piece that never came to be, but he suggested that I still go ahead and post it anyway, so you can read up on that here. Obviously my interpretations of my findings are influenced to a degree by my own personal experience living in Japan, so I'm not saying this is the definitive take on a lot of these issues, but hopefully it'll clarify Patrick's statement on there not being evidence of CERO having a bias against content featuring homosexuality.
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't? Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there. I'd guess that a sexual situation involving whatever group would be treated as a sexual situation by the raters, but just having a gay couple not even having sex might be called a sexual situation in the ratings, just because it's not a common enough experience to most people right now to not bring up sex.
I think the idea that being gay somehow automatically adds sexual situations into a game(or anything) where a straight couple doesn't is absurd.
And I couldn't care less about some parents idiocy. You would explain a straight couple to a child the exact same way you would a gay couple. Or, you should, at least.
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't? Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there. I'd guess that a sexual situation involving whatever group would be treated as a sexual situation by the raters, but just having a gay couple not even having sex might be called a sexual situation in the ratings, just because it's not a common enough experience to most people right now to not bring up sex.
I think the idea that being gay somehow automatically adds sexual situations into a game(or anything) where a straight couple doesn't is absurd.
And I couldn't care less about some parents idiocy. You would explain a straight couple to a child the exact same way you would a gay couple. Or, you should, at least.
No, you really shouldn't
Wake me up when this broken record news cycle is over.
@freedomtown: Yes, you should. Two people in a relationship is simply that. The only time their sex matters is when the question of how a child is born comes up.
But hey, I sure don't feel like getting into a pointless argument on the internet, so let's leave it at that.
@freedomtown: Go ahead and elaborate on that point. I dare you.
Doesn't a gay couple bring sex into a game, where a straight couple doesn't? Parents don't question how they have to explain to a kid seeing a man and woman together, but a common reason I hear for not having gay couples in public is that straight parents have to explain what's going on there. I'd guess that a sexual situation involving whatever group would be treated as a sexual situation by the raters, but just having a gay couple not even having sex might be called a sexual situation in the ratings, just because it's not a common enough experience to most people right now to not bring up sex.
No. You explain it by saying "Know how most guys like girls and most girls like guys? Well some guys like guys instead and some girls like girls instead." That is literally the extent of the explanation needed. And unless the kid in-question already has a basic understanding of what sex is, it's not going to make a difference to them one way or another.
Great little read Patrick, thanks! It's disappointing that these questions even have to still be asked, but nonetheless wonderful to see these ratings boards taking a strong stand in terms of not differentiating between certain relationships.
As others have mentioned, reading this instantly drew my thoughts away to the MPAA, which doesn't specifically explain their ratings in any clear way, and has more or less been shown to generally give harsher ratings to films featuring intimacy from any kind of non straight relationship, as well as even just hetero women experiencing sexual pleasure.
Though it has a ton of flaws, and tries (and fails) to become a weird kind of Michael Moore detective story, I recommend This Film is Not Yet Rated if anyone's curious about those lovely repressive fools.
The MPAA is lightyears behind (atleast the) ESRB.
Interesting article, and something that is definitely pertinent in the grander scope of society as well.
When Michael Sam became the first openly gay player in the NFL, he made history. There was already open criticism and some real questionable shit people were saying in the months leading to him being drafted. But when he kissed his boyfriend it stoked the ire of every bigot who had been doubtful, and they reacted as if this confirmed all their fears.
The commonly-repeated notion of "there were kids watching that" is utterly ridiculous.
@joshwent: Agreed, I immediately thought of this documentary and how impossible it must be for something like the MPAA to claim such an objective policy considering the practicalities of how they actually rate movies.
@patrickklepek: Great article. I'd love to see a follow-up if responses from CERO or OFLC/USK/BBFC* were forthcoming.
* I think BBFC would be historical now PEGI deals with UK ratings but maybe the BBFC still provide guidance for things pending 18 ratings over here. I certainly have (Autumn) 2012 games that retain a BBFC rating so not sure what happened to that transition (announced in 2009).
This is all very interesting in a all smoke and no fire kind of way etc.
But when is Patrick going to investigate the initial banning of Mark Ecko's getting up from Australian retailers?
I understand it's a controversial issue, but the people need answers dammit!
I really like the idea of just pretending I'm a time travelling reporter.
This is an outrage.
Gay and lesbian people should be in every game and be a choice in everything !
Im joking.
Why don't they make tomodachi gay edition or rainbow edition.
or it could day one DLC.
If there was a game like this that had only gay relationships then I just wouldn't buy it.
Its a bit like Gay pubs and clubs or gay nights at "normal" ones. I probably wouldn't go there and infact some places wouldn't even let you in if you are straight !
This is an outrage.
Gay and lesbian people should be in every game and be a choice in everything !
Im joking.
Why don't they make tomodachi gay edition or rainbow edition.
or it could day one DLC.
If there was a game like this that had only gay relationships then I just wouldn't buy it.
Its a bit like Gay pubs and clubs or gay nights at "normal" ones. I probably wouldn't go there and infact some places wouldn't even let you in if you are straight !
Gay nightclubs are fucking awesome.
Maybe it's because of a psychological deterrent to intolerant assholes and roid monkey over-compensaters or something. You will never dance anywhere like you will at a gay nightclub.
The first public place (and probably the last) I have ever danced on a table.
This is all very interesting in a all smoke and no fire kind of way etc.
But when is Patrick going to investigate the initial banning of Mark Ecko's getting up from Australian retailers?
I understand it's a controversial issue, but the people need answers dammit!
I really like the idea of just pretending I'm a time travelling reporter.
You should find a hat and trenchcoat, this would make an amazing noir themed video feature.
Patrick Klepek Time detective.
Cool, I like this plain research approach. Wouldn't mind more of these tidbits, they're interesting.
@pepsiman: Nice insight, dude. I could read about Japanese society for hours. It's an interesting culture, especially with how it's seemingly changed post-WWII. Gonna read your posts on race there, now.
It doesn't surprise me that the LBGT community isn't considered, as they are minority of video game consumers. The only reason why there's an "issue" with Tomodachi Life is because of a series of bugs that made the game behave in an unintended way by the games designers. Then these bugs got fixed.
So Nintendo fucked up with their press release, stating that they "didn't want to make any social comments" with the game, that's fair and newsworthy, but you all need to realize that Tomodachi Life is a fucking glorified screensaver. You're not getting robbed of the possibility to marry your Mii off to someone of the same gender, because it's not an option... It's a roll of the dice that it will happen. You can't even shake this ant farm to make something happen, you just populate the game and it goes. It doesn't matter if you are gay or straight or a fucking macrophiliac, your Mii behaves on its own.
Everything about this has been blown way out of proportion.
Sing the fuck along with me
I don't have kids, but even if I did these ratings would be meaningless to me. I'd much rather look into the game myself and decide if I was comfortable with them playing it. Simple as that.
@patrickklepek Out of an abundance of pedantry, I'll point out that PEGI isn't the ratings board for all of Europe, despite the name. There are a couple of countries which still use their own systems in some way (Germany, most famously, has much stricter rules than PEGI on certain matters, which is why some games are censored or banned altogether in Germany, but not for the rest of Europe).
Might be interesting to know what the USK's methodology is on this, though I doubt it'd be any different.
@mysterysheep: Super flattered to hear you got something out of it! Imperfect though it may be, I call Japan home, so I like to do what I can to help make parts of it make sense to other people who don't have that sort of life experience. :)
@spaghet3: Interesting or sad? I mean, its absolutely great that the video game community is overwhelmingly in favor of realizing people are who they are, but the fact that major politics as a whole has yet to get there is pretty pathetic. At least in America, I can't comment on policy in other countries.
The ESRB has always been the most level-headed and reasonable ratings board in the USA. It's no surprise they are forward thinking like that, but it still boggles my mind why certain companies fear the ESRB and getting rated AO with material that would likely end up with a Teen rating, and instead censor their games out of fear.
@pepsiman: Wow! That was quite a... thorough analysis. ;)
Really though, thanks for that write up. Fascinating stuff. I think it's easy for those of us in the West to assume that other societies are very similar to our own, and if not, they're trying to be. But, as you convincingly show, actions and thoughts can come from completely different sources when you take into account a country's social history. And it's imperative to understand the roots before you analyze or attempt to criticise anything. Especially in a country as unique and insular as Japan.
You should consider posting this as a blog here on GB, because I'm sure most people won't check the tail end of this random thread.
Yeah, I enjoyed this and I'd be interested in seeing notes from any other scrapped stories you have. Good to see that the ESRB and PEGI are doing the decent thing when it comes to ratings, although it's always really disheartening to see the attitude Russia takes to LGBT peoples. I apologise for any lapse in the moderation of the site recently. We've been trying to work really hard on these comments sections over the past week but I think on a Friday, San Francisco time, most of us British mods would have been asleep and this whole thing got away from us a little.
@garnsr: Seeing two men or women in a relationship only brings up sex if you start thinking about them having sex. They may be celibate and yet still committed. And explaining that two people love each other to a child is hardly contentious unless the parent has an irrational problem with it.
That response from PEGI is very interesting. My perception of them here in the UK is that they are a lot more strict in terms of definitions (if it has this, then it has this) and that refrain from "context" may have represented that. But the fact that they were so open and specific might mean that they are actually a little more variable than I give them credit for. I should look through those questions.
And yes, Patrick, I would have liked to have seen whatever you were working on: less for what it said, but more from who said it and where you got it from - my opinion probably won't change, but I'd like to see a little more depth on all the others.
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