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    The Nintendo 3DS is a portable game console produced by Nintendo. The handheld features stereoscopic 3D technology that doesn't require glasses. It was released in Japan on February 26, 2011 and in North America on March 27, 2011.

    3D Effect Can Be Switched Off

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    Meowayne

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    #51  Edited By Meowayne

    Ok, here are some things that came to my mind. They are all very basic and not very exciting, but still:
     

    • For my biology studies, I have worked and learned with 3D molecule visualizers. Many of these let you switch to an anaglyph 3D view because, even though they are rendered in "classical" 3D, it is sometimes impossible to make out the actual structure of the atoms, even when you rotate and scale the model. Once you put on the glasses, the way the molecule is constructed is immediatly clear; the 3D effect isn't just a nice thing to have, it is important to get a grasp of the structure.

    • A Shmup with a certain degree of freedom to the front and back. Indicating at what height the enemy sprites are flying is possible to make in 2D with size and shadows, but still impossible to make in this kind of game. With 3D, avoiding these on 3 axis would actually be possible and a very new gameplay experience. See the "speed and course of an object" paragraph below.

    • Lots of optical illusions stop working when you add depth perception. At a very basic level, I can imagine a game that plays with these different perceptions and would not be possible to play only in 2D.

    • Games like plants vs zombies take place on a grid, obviously for playability. Even with polygons and a rotatable camera, players would place the camera so that the units would not overlap one another, to keep them apart more easily. Depth makes different planes of gameplay immediatly and intuitively obvious, allowing for more camera play and less fiddling around.

    • Breaking the 4th wall: In the DS RPG "Contact", the player was involved in the game world. Depth can be used as a storytelling medium, where 2D elements are one part of the story, and 3D elements are another, clearly distinguished from one another. You could maybe make a similar distinction using other visual aids, but it probably wouldn't be as powerful, especially if the 3D elements are supposed to speak to the person in front of the handheld.

    • Estimating the speed and course of an object. People without depth perception often have problems with estimating when an object will be where, and how fast it is travelling. One-eye visuals work best with clearly distinguishable objects that move at medium speed. Once things are perfectly still or move very fast, our brain has difficulty handling them without depth perception. Videogames have always been designed to not include depth information. Who knows what a developer can do in terms of having the player work with moving objects once the player can use both eyes? Nobody's ever really tried.

    • Distinction between a picture and a window. Movies (and games) often play with the illusion that something is reality when it is in fact a flat picture or something similar. Who knows how a game designer could incorporate the player being able to distinguish the two?
     
    This is what I came up with, on a basic level, in 5 minutes of brainstorming in a badly lit room, by myself. Imagine what maybe a set of creative directors, especially Nintendo developers, could come up with to implement depth perception into gameplay. To suggest that no possible imaginable game could, in any way, ever, not also be made on a 2D screen seems like a very bold and blind statement to me. 
     
    Look at a tree. Close one eye. A LOT of information and clarity goes missing, even when you move your head around. 
     
    When Metal Gear Solid came out in 1998, I think everyone had one or two moments of: "Wha- Oh! That's clever. Why has nobody thought of that before?"; that's what I imagine when I hear "Nintendo is making a console with a 3D screen". 
    "... but they are expected to make them in a way the 3D can always be turned off" is a disappointment for me, it takes away the incentive and motivation for developers to sit down and think about how to entertain us in new, creative ways.
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    HandsomeDead

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    #52  Edited By HandsomeDead
    @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " I don't see why you'd make 3D the seeling point of a device if you can turn it off, especially when it's a brand new device. Seems like a lack of confidence in the idea. "
    The 3D effects were Avatar's main selling point, and you could watch that in 2D if you wanted to. It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. "
    Avatar is the product, not the hardware. It's completely different.
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    Meowayne

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    #53  Edited By Meowayne
    @ryanwho said:

    " @Meowayne said:

    " Because that means no games build around the technology, turning it into a gimmick.                                            "

    So when the DS came out the stylus was basically mandatory and a bunch of gimmick games came out. They let up on that and games only used it when it made sense. When the Wii came out the Wiimote was basically mandatory, gimmick games, they let up, and mostly only games that made sense used it. So not only are you wrong, you're 180 degrees wrong. You're Bizzaro Superman. "
    I'm not sure I understand you. When the DS came out, it took a while for developers to realize how the touchscreen could be used in meaningful, fun and creative ways. When the Wii came out, it took a while for developers to realize how the motions controls could be used in meaningful, fun and creative ways. Now I am saying that when the 3DS comes out, I want the developers to have to figure out how 3D can be used in meaningful, fun and creative ways. How exactly does that make me wrong or differ from your opinion...?
     
    I'm not suggesting that Nintendo forces devs to make 3D games, you know? If you want to make a game for the 3DS and your game doesn't require 3D in any way, then for god's sake don't force it on the player! 
    BUT if you WANT to make a game that needs depth, you shouldn't have to worry about your sales because Nintendo lets the player turn 3D off (rendering your game idea useless). 
     
    The decision on whether or not your game is also playable in 2D should be made by the developers, NOT by the players or Nintendo. I expect 95% of 3D-screen uses to be something that is "only" nice and not necessary for you to play the game. But I do not want to sacrifice the 5% of truly (or potentially) new experiences, just like I'd dearly miss those DS games that have mandatory touchscreen, dual-screen or microphone gameplay.
     

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    Al3xand3r

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    #54  Edited By Al3xand3r

    None of your ideas would suddenly break and make the games unplayable if the user turns the 3D effect off, so the developer doesn't have to choose, he can implement it and it only adds to his audience that people who have trouble with 3D can still play his game mostly unaffected. I doubt you can estimate the speed and course of an object with such an effect better. It's just a small effect that makes things seem more 3D if it's anything like existing techs, it's not gonna emulate a stretch of a mile as if it's in front of you, or have an infinite number of viewing angles (which even normal screens don't, and hey, stereoscopic 3D is still made of what, 2 different images that are still flat on their own?). But hey, if you can do that, it's an added perk for people to wanna use 3D, but again doesn't render it unplayable for people who can't do that, as they have been gaming in this way in the same genres so far anyway. Just like people with one eye can still function fine in the world, even if not as good in certain situations. Many of your ideas are still mere visual effects like Rallier's GUI, just put to more effective use with actual game elements, like the ship in the shmup, or breaking the 4th wall, that 's neat but doesn't make the game unplayable if you turn it off. And again that 5% that wants to provide a unique experience with 3D that has yet to be explained with an example can just write on their cover that it requires 3D to be on, just as it should write it anyway so that people who can't work with 3D can avoid buying it. That the switch still lets people turn it off anyway makes no difference.

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    Icemael

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    #55  Edited By Icemael
    @HandsomeDead said:
    " @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " I don't see why you'd make 3D the seeling point of a device if you can turn it off, especially when it's a brand new device. Seems like a lack of confidence in the idea. "
    The 3D effects were Avatar's main selling point, and you could watch that in 2D if you wanted to. It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. "
    Avatar is the product, not the hardware. It's completely different. "
    No, it's not. One of the 3DS's selling points is its games' 3D effects. One of Avatar's selling points was its 3D effects. The only difference is that the 3DS is going to have a multitude of games, whereas Avatar was just one movie. 
     
    @Meowayne:  
     
    • Camera movement completely removes the issue of not being able to see an object's structure, so 3D doesn't really improve anything.
    • Doesn't make a difference. If you're looking at the game from a top-down perspective, the 3D isn't going to make anything difference, and if you're looking at it from a lower angle, you could just do it with regular "3D" for the same effect.
    • Give me an example.
    • Doesn't make a difference. If units overlap in 3D, they're just as hard to tell apart as they are in "3D".
    • This is the one example you've given where 3D makes an actual, useful difference, and as you said, it could easily be done using some other effect.
    • This is current-day 3D on a handheld device we're talking about, not virtual reality from some science fiction movie. 3D might help with this sometimes in the future, but as it is now, it wouldn't make a difference.
    • Again, doesn't make a difference. If either the flat picture or the 3D stuff fill the entire view, it doesn't matter whether you can tell them apart, and if the flat picture only occupies part of the view, you'd be able to tell it apart even without 3D effects. And in addition to it not making a difference, this kind of stuff isn't possible with current-day 3D.
     
    None of the stuff you've come up with is stuff that couldn't easily be done in 2D. And I'm sure that if Nintendo had good ideas for stuff that could only be done using 3D effects, they wouldn't have made them optional.
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    HandsomeDead

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    #56  Edited By HandsomeDead
    @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " I don't see why you'd make 3D the seeling point of a device if you can turn it off, especially when it's a brand new device. Seems like a lack of confidence in the idea. "
    The 3D effects were Avatar's main selling point, and you could watch that in 2D if you wanted to. It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. "
    Avatar is the product, not the hardware. It's completely different. "
    No, it's not. One of the 3DS's selling points is its games' 3D effects. One of Avatar's selling points was its 3D effects. The only difference is that the 3DS is going to have a multitude of games, whereas Avatar was just one movie."
    How does that not sound like a complete difference to you? Avatar was a film that was made for different formats because, as of yet, there is no complete widespread use of 3D in all markets whereas Nintendo's 3D console, which would be allowing a 3D standardisation, is allowing you to turn that part off.
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    Icemael

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    #57  Edited By Icemael
    @HandsomeDead said:
    " @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " @Icemael said:
    " @HandsomeDead said:
    " I don't see why you'd make 3D the seeling point of a device if you can turn it off, especially when it's a brand new device. Seems like a lack of confidence in the idea. "
    The 3D effects were Avatar's main selling point, and you could watch that in 2D if you wanted to. It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. "
    Avatar is the product, not the hardware. It's completely different. "
    No, it's not. One of the 3DS's selling points is its games' 3D effects. One of Avatar's selling points was its 3D effects. The only difference is that the 3DS is going to have a multitude of games, whereas Avatar was just one movie."
    How does that not sound like a complete difference to you? Avatar was a film that was made for different formats because, as of yet, there is no complete widespread use of 3D in all markets whereas Nintendo's 3D console, which would be allowing a 3D standardisation, is allowing you to turn that part off. "
    What I'm saying is that both are products that tout 3D as a selling point, yet allow you to experience what they have to offer in 2D if you want to. I see no relevant difference at all.
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    Linkyshinks

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    #58  Edited By Linkyshinks
    @Meowayne said:
    " Ok, here are some things that came to my mind. They are all very basic and not very exciting, but still:
     
    • For my biology studies, I have worked and learned with 3D molecule visualizers. Many of these let you switch to an anaglyph 3D view because, even though they are rendered in "classical" 3D, it is sometimes impossible to make out the actual structure of the atoms, even when you rotate and scale the model. Once you put on the glasses, the way the molecule is constructed is immediatly clear; the 3D effect isn't just a nice thing to have, it is important to get a grasp of the structure.

    • A Shmup with a certain degree of freedom to the front and back. Indicating at what height the enemy sprites are flying is possible to make in 2D with size and shadows, but still impossible to make in this kind of game. With 3D, avoiding these on 3 axis would actually be possible and a very new gameplay experience. See the "speed and course of an object" paragraph below.

    • Lots of optical illusions stop working when you add depth perception. At a very basic level, I can imagine a game that plays with these different perceptions and would not be possible to play only in 2D.

    • Games like plants vs zombies take place on a grid, obviously for playability. Even with polygons and a rotatable camera, players would place the camera so that the units would not overlap one another, to keep them apart more easily. Depth makes different planes of gameplay immediatly and intuitively obvious, allowing for more camera play and less fiddling around.

    • Breaking the 4th wall: In the DS RPG "Contact", the player was involved in the game world. Depth can be used as a storytelling medium, where 2D elements are one part of the story, and 3D elements are another, clearly distinguished from one another. You could maybe make a similar distinction using other visual aids, but it probably wouldn't be as powerful, especially if the 3D elements are supposed to speak to the person in front of the handheld.

    • Estimating the speed and course of an object. People without depth perception often have problems with estimating when an object will be where, and how fast it is travelling. One-eye visuals work best with clearly distinguishable objects that move at medium speed. Once things are perfectly still or move very fast, our brain has difficulty handling them without depth perception. Videogames have always been designed to not include depth information. Who knows what a developer can do in terms of having the player work with moving objects once the player can use both eyes? Nobody's ever really tried.

    • Distinction between a picture and a window. Movies (and games) often play with the illusion that something is reality when it is in fact a flat picture or something similar. Who knows how a game designer could incorporate the player being able to distinguish the two?
     This is what I came up with, on a basic level, in 5 minutes of brainstorming in a badly lit room, by myself. Imagine what maybe a set of creative directors, especially Nintendo developers, could come up with to implement depth perception into gameplay. To suggest that no possible imaginable game could, in any way, ever, not also be made on a 2D screen seems like a very bold and blind statement to me.   Look at a tree. Close one eye. A LOT of information and clarity goes missing, even when you move your head around.   When Metal Gear Solid came out in 1998, I think everyone had one or two moments of: "Wha- Oh! That's clever. Why has nobody thought of that before?"; that's what I imagine when I hear "Nintendo is making a console with a 3D screen".  "... but they are expected to make them in a way the 3D can always be turned off" is a disappointment for me, it takes away the incentive and motivation for developers to sit down and think about how to entertain us in new, creative ways. "
     
    Dude, the majority of those are simply visual effects that can already be achieved using present technology. Also, I haven't said it's straight out impossible, only that I think it will need to be used in conjunction with something else, to bring about new gameplay not possible otherwise. 
     
    Nothing you've posted above would bring above radically new gameplay born directly from 3D presentation. 
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    Meowayne

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    #59  Edited By Meowayne

    Yes? I don't know why you all repeat what I said in that very post. I sat down for 5 minutes with my anaglyph glasses and tried to come up with some crude ideas of things that are, at the very least, superior to a similar concept in 2D space.
    I was not trying to draw a concept of the new Pikmin. 
     
    There are people whose job it is to spend hours of collaboration and creativity to come up with interactive entertainment. You claim that there is no imaginable way for these people to make games that benefit from 3D screens, and that it is a good thing Nintendo discourages them from doing so. That is what I go against.
     
    Nobody is talking about improving game experiences. Maybe I need to clarify this. I am talking about expanding the pool of possible gaming experiences. I want to do stuff I have never done before and never considered possible.

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    Al3xand3r

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    #60  Edited By Al3xand3r

    No, we claimed that they're mere visual gimmicks that leave gameplay mostly unaffected if you turn it off so developers can support it and users can disable it with no real issue. I don't see how making a system that won't give headaches to people who can't stand 3D is discouraging developers from supporting one of its features when they wouldn't even have to alter much at all since, again, it's a mere visual effect. No examples given so far show how a game would be developed with different gameplay for use with 3D, and different without 3D, for the developer to choose the latter and not support 3D in the ways he wanted. It's not like it would require extra work to make the two versions' gameplay so different for them to choose to not support 3D just because a small percentage of users is bound to disable it.

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    Meowayne

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    #61  Edited By Meowayne

    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that it is "a mere visual effect" that can never, ever, in any way have an impact on the possibilities of interactive entertainment. Because of that, I believe games that require 3D to be possible and desirable. Nintendo discourages the development of games that require 3D, at least that is what I get from this news. It might just mean that the hardware is capable of displaying traditional 2D content, which is of course not news at all.
     
     I would have liked a small percentage of 3DS games that are built around the fact that visual depth information is present, because I believe such games are possible. I fully support the idea that in every other game, the effect should be totally optional.  That is all.

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    Al3xand3r

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    #62  Edited By Al3xand3r
    @Meowayne said:

    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that it is "a mere visual effect" that can never, ever, in any way have an impact on the possibilities of interactive entertainment.

    And I disagree with the idea current 3D tech allows for more, and await examples of how I'm wrong because if it's possible it would be kick ass. I see it like HDR, it can make visuals, atmosphere, immersion better, but if I turn it off in every PC game, either because my PC can't handle it or because I can't stand the effect like some can't stand 3D, the experience is mostly unaffected, and the developer doesn't have to do meaningful extra work to cater to both me and someone who doesn't disable it, therefor like the majority he chooses to support it so that he can show off his game at its best and as he intended without caring that a small percentage of his market will disable it for their own personal reasons. The depth information is hardly meaningful, the image is still 2D and still confined to the in-game camera's viewing angle, but with a different 2D image for each eye, which makes it seem more 3D to the user. Combined with headtracking it could perhaps lead to even more impressive results, but still not in gameplay as the headtracking itself would be sufficient to cover the purposes of that alone if the game somehow needed you to view things at different angles. I don't think the ability to turn it off discourages any developer whatsoever, when it's going to be the first system where EVERY user can have 3D on, as long as it doesn't give him headaches, without requiring glasses, a new TV, or anything. The 3DS (and likely the next PSP) will liberate developers who want 3D, not confine them. I don't see how gameplay uses are possible.
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    Linkyshinks

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    #63  Edited By Linkyshinks
    @Meowayne said:
    " Yes? I don't know why you all repeat what I said in that very post. I sat down for 5 minutes with my anaglyph glasses and tried to come up with some crude ideas of things that are, at the very least, superior to a similar concept in 2D space.
    I was not trying to draw a concept of the new Pikmin. 
     
    There are people whose job it is to spend hours of collaboration and creativity to come up with interactive entertainment. You claim that there is no imaginable way for these people to make games that benefit from 3D screens, and that it is a good thing Nintendo discourages them from doing so. That is what I go against.
     
    Nobody is talking about improving game experiences. Maybe I need to clarify this. I am talking about expanding the pool of possible gaming experiences. I want to do stuff I have never done before and never considered possible. "
     
    Don't get me wrong here, developers may well come up with something ingenious eventually, and that may have a positive snowballing effect on multiple games, I just don't think we're going to see such games for a good while. 
     
    Anyway, we all need to see the full feature list before we can fully imagine what's within the real of possibility. 
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    Meowayne

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    #64  Edited By Meowayne
    @Al3xand3r said:
    And I disagree with the idea current 3D tech allows for anything more
    Which is a perfectly viable position! But a button on the device that lets the user switch off the effect at any time in every game inevitably means little to no incentive for developers to even try and evolve games in new directions. I want them to be able to and encouraged to try, instead of building games around the fact that this button exists. Or they should be able to decide whether the button does anything or not, with a standardised "This game requires the 3D effect!" field on the box. 
     
    It is only the worst-case scenario of this news that disappoints me: Nintendo forcing developers to only release games that are also playable with the 3D effect turned off.
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    rallier

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    #65  Edited By rallier
     http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=123153

    "This isn't limited to just kids, but we're aware one in some tens of people, including adults, have difficulty with three dimensional visuals. So, while the 3D image is a special feature of the 3DS, we won't force the player to use the 3D functionality. By making it so that the player can at all times play with [the 3D feature] off, we believe we can comply with those who have difficulty with the 3D view or those who are worried about their childs' eyes."
     

    I'm really disappointed to see them confirm that it is indeed some sort of switch that will disable the 3D for all games forcing developers to makes games work both with and without the 3D turned on.
     
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    natetodamax

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    #66  Edited By natetodamax

    Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose?

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    FluxWaveZ

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    #67  Edited By FluxWaveZ
    @natetodamax said:
    " Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose? "
    3D is probably not everything the "3DS" has going for it.
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    #68  Edited By natetodamax
    @FluxWaveZ said:
    " @natetodamax said:
    " Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose? "
    3D is probably not everything the "3DS" has going for it. "
    I guess I probably could have assumed that. Good thing.
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    rallier

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    #69  Edited By rallier
    @Meowayne said:
    It is only the worst-case scenario of this news that disappoints me: Nintendo forcing developers to only release games that are also playable with the 3D effect turned off. "
    Guess what...
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    Meowayne

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    #70  Edited By Meowayne
       Herp derp. Put on your anaglyph glasses and imagine what its like playing the 3DS. I look forward to it.
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    Willy105

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    #71  Edited By Willy105
    @Meowayne said:
    "
       Herp derp. Put on your anaglyph glasses and imagine what its like playing the 3DS. I look forward to it. "
    It's bound to be very different. Anaglyph glasses are very imperfect and primitive. The 3DS will use state of the art 3D technology that doesn't use glasses. No red or blue necessary.
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    Meowayne

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    #72  Edited By Meowayne

    Well, duh.

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    EliasT

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    #73  Edited By EliasT

    I still refuse to purchase a Nintendo product. So yeah :)

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