From an email in his blog post;

I am happy to treat someone however they want to be treated. Wanna be a guy or a girl or a fox or whatever and I will be happy to treat you that way.

But I think that is very different from the physical reality of your human body.

I don't see why it's important that frigging Gabe from webcomics must understand and agree with people in order to "tolerate" them, or be nice to them, or treat them the same way as anyone else. To be honest, acting like a dick towards people on twitter is what he does/has done for years now - he probably wasn't being a douche because of the subject matter, just being a douche. Mike's reputation for being an asshole is well-earned but he isn't evil, he isn't a bigot, he just doesn't "get it*."

*In which "it" is any number of social or political issues that he doesn't have direct experience with.

@winternet:

That's mainly because I only know about him through games, and made Takeshi's Challenge as a comedian.

@mracoon said:

Because as soon as you get out the word, "...but..." you're just as easily dismissed and labeled, "bigot".

Takes two to throw stones in a war just as much as it takes two to listen in a diplomacy.

Meh. This racist, sexist industry needs a change up, no doubt.

I should just erase my whole blog and write what you just wrote, because you nailed it @sin4profit.

Social networking is so stressful nowadays.

But, it wasn't you that wrote the wiki, right? I think you only have 1 point or something in the game's page and his own page.

I think everyone should shut up here. Were Gabe's tweets kind of shitty? Yeah, sure. Thing is though twitter is the absolute worst spot to try to broach any subject like gender issues that require some serious long form discussion. So much context is lost in trying to cram everything into 140 words. Heck, I think I learned this lesson today first hand. I got fairly annoyed at all the tweets Cliffy B sent out last night about his anger and dissapointment on Xbox subverting many of the positive sides of the XBone by reverting all of their policys.

Today, he put up a long form blog expanding his thoughts on the issue and while I still don't quite see eye to eye with him the fact that he was able to expand on his thoughts in long form really gave him the space to get his points across way way better than he ever could have. I'm not saying Gabe was right in what he said but I'm also saying that twitter is the fucking worst place to try to actually get important thoughts across. So maybe we don't instantly get mad at someone when they poorly try to convey serious topic on twitter? Just a thought. If their over all behavior as a person paints them as a racist or misogynist etc ect then I think there might be grounds to get angry but getting all internet ragey at a few tweets is stupid, sorry.

Thanks! But someone has to hire me first.

If he wants to speak his mind and is willing to accept the inevitable shitstorm from that portion of the public which doesn't agree with him then why shouldn't he? He's not campaigning against transgendered people, just having dumb arguments with them. I don't believe that anyone is looking to Mike for sound social commentary or for an exemplar of polite and politic public behavior, people who are turned off by his views can always unfollow him and get on with their lives.

I mean, jesus, this isn't even a dickwolves level of controversy here, I'm surprised that anyone actually gives a shit. Gabe from penny arcade said something dumb on the internet?

Quotes but doesn't give the full context.

The first one was from someone saying they hate cis men - meaning men who were born with a penis who identify as men, for those unfamiliar with the term. His reply was that if you're going to use "cis" he's just going to ignore them. This isn't anything against transgender people.

Neither is saying that women have vaginas. If we're talking about how people are born with certain equipment, in general, he's not wrong. If you said person X has a vagina and person Y has a penis, the most logical assumption without being told how each person identifies themselves is that X is a woman and Y is a man. He did say that in the end, how a person presents themselves trumps everything and that's how he'll treat them.

This issue got brought up again when someone attacked him regarding this panel. They pretty much proved the case why such a panel should exist, when saying women have vaginas is equated with hate speech. Yes, I saw people saying that, calling him a transphobe.

@winternet:

I think @pepsiman is the one who wrote the game wiki (although I don't remember seeing any of the stuff mentioned on the page within the game itself).

The first pic in the OP is what I wish the thread had been about, because I'd like to see that discussed - and why in the world was it that bad of a piece of text? Everybody knows 8.8 means 0/100 in reviews to a huge amount of internet loudmouths who in a better world would be summoned by black helicopters and taken towards the nearest human processing and organ-donation concentration camp for useless filfth within minutes of posting a death threat to a reviewer for giving their fave game not the maximum score, everybody knows the world would be better off.

..two old post-op m2f friends would agree that women have vaginas though!

I used to enjoy using the internet, but nowadays everything people say is either biased towards a sexist agenda, racist, or offensive in one way or another.

People should just get over things, instead of rallying for the sake of something to do

As far as the Penny Arcade thing goes, my thoughts on it are pretty simple. Could Gabe have been way more sensitive and understanding about issues instead of making jokes on Twitter? Yes. Has anything about that comic over the years told me to expect that? Not in the least. I don't agree with some of the things he's said, and definitely not with the way he said them, but he's clearly demonstrated that he doesn't have a hatred or any honest-to-goodness disdain for the trans community. He just bristles and reacts in his typical asshole-ish fashion when he's called a monster by someone who also comments that all Cis-males should be killed.

I don't think the only two degrees here have to be "Bigoted monster that should be shamed and publicly mocked" and "shining paragon of acceptance". There are going to be people in the middle, people who don't know all the complicated ins and outs of the situation and, yes, say some dumb shit from time to time. There are going to be those who disagree with people's life choices and think it's just plain weird. But what he posted on the front page of his site at least tells me that he's not calling for lynch mobs or persecution of any sort, and he wouldn't be the type to condone that sort of thing. While I wish he'd have chosen his words more carefully, and that some of his opinions were different, I'm not going to vilify him or try to ruin his life because he's not as open minded as I'd like. You can't convince onlookers that your side of an argument is right if you ruthlessly dismiss or insult everyone who slips up. There's room for forgiveness and education, I'd like to think.

@epicsteve: Heh, when I wrote that there was only one other comment. Guess I spent too long waffling. I'm content to support any movement of this sort because I'm friends with enough people who feel alienated by sexism and misogyny in the industry frequently enough that I get agitated by it, as I'm sure is also the case with many posters here.

I can definitely see how it's worth keeping a level head with all this though - a new scantily-clad female video game character isn't as much of an issue as ongoing abuse during online games or death threats sent to Anita or comic artists deciding what genders people are allowed to be. Even so, I'm not going to bother objecting to those "scantily-clad female character" stories because they're still smaller pieces of the same big problem.

Can someone explain how the term "cisgender" came about? Because it sounds insulting, why not just use "non-transgender"?

Also Samantha Allen seems a bit radical

@bocam: "Cis" is a Latin prefix that roughly means "the same" or something to that effect. So a cisgendered person is just someone who's perception of their own gender is the same as they were given at birth. It's not insulting at all and it's an extremely common term in the transgender community.

or death threats to comic artists

Samantha Allen is exactly the issue. She's a good example of someone with a good overall message and agenda but her communication is generally misinformed and extreme. I constantly see her bully people on Twitter. Like Anita, not necessarily the best person to have a microphone and speak about these topics.

cis- is a latin prefix meaning "on the same side as" or "on this side of"

Literally, the opposite of trans. It's purely technical, so I don't see how it's insulting. It came about largely in the same way the use of the word "heterosexual" came into popular use in the 1960s, when we stopped seeing homosexuality as a mental disease. Before that point, it was simply assumed that sexual attraction to the opposite sex was just seen as "normal" and people didn't give it much thought beyond that.

I still haven't heard a specific example (including names, dates) where a woman in video games was denied her rights because of her gender. Even if someone were to bring an example to light, our only response would be "yea, that's bad, stop that". It's up to the victim to take action, e.g. file a civil suit.

Booth babes voluntarily take their job, same as strippers or actors in pornography. The whole "women in bikinis in games is misogyny" argument is tired, idiotic, and baseless. Can we get over this already?

Didn't you kind of contradict yourself with the second part of your post? I mean I want equal rights for both genders. Does that make me a feminist? I don't think so becasue feminism to me sounds like it is ignoring that there are inequality problems for both genders in society. However by your definition I woud be a feminist but I do not self identify as such. My point being that people have different interpretations of the term feminism which is probably the cause of the differnce in opinion here over Phil Fish's quote.

@epicsteve: "There's a larger pool of males that are interested in the business so of course it's going to be male dominated."

This right here is actually PART of the problem. The pool of males interested in this is so much larger, not because of...I dunno interest or lack of interest, but because those areas are targeted specifically to male students. And I don't mean through anything as overt as posters saying "Ladies Keep Out" or the things people USUALLY associate with that kind of thing, I'm talking about not being taken as seriously in classes (not just by other students, but professors). This stuff is MUCH more endemic than people who haven't walked in their shoes realize. That's WHY so many people deny it exists, they don't see it, and it's not a character flaw (which is often how it's treated), it's just THERE.

I'll agree that some people take it too far with their need to be completely right. It's RIDICULOUS that someone would say feminism=women having MORE power than men, but that is a vocal minority. A vocal minority people focus on because it proves their narrative.

@bocam: o yea because calling for better moderation of the internet and hiring more people to get more unique viewpoints is a bad thing. Not saying it's economically viable or anything. But clearly she's super extremist radical

My girlfriend and I were just chatting about this issue and her point was that there are much more men naturally interested in this business and I gave your counter argument. I don't know. I haven't walked in the shoes of a lady wanting in. From my perspective, dudes are always open arms in a female being interested in games. But there are enough people saying it's an issue, so I'll buy that.

I think he's speaking to what the word has become.

What happened to our industry? Absolutely nothing, that's the problem.

@epicsteve: Ahhh, this is why I enjoy 80% of the conversations I have on Giant Bomb. Actual CONVERSATION. And I respect you and your girlfriend's point of view, I'm definitely not here to attack anyone cause I only RECENTLY became aware of stuff like this. Ask a few more friends who've pursued a degree in either science, mathematics, engineer, programming, ANY of it, (cause I've asked a few, and sure it's ALL anecdotal, but it's also pretty freaky).

You mention that hashtag, and while it got bogged down in INCREDIBLE bullshit from BOTH sides (or rather both extremes), but that right there has a lot of great examples of men SAYING they're open to women in the workplace, but actually putting it into practice is a LOT trickier. Especially when you get into non-personal stories like Naughty Dog having to fight tooth and nail to get a girl on their game's cover or Remember Me having to fight to have a female protagonist with a male love interest. I mean you dig even a LITTLE deep on this stuff and it becomes clear that there IS a problem. And of course games should be fun, games ARE fun, but if we want to keep defending them from jackals like Jack Thompson or The Today Show, we NEED to start taking a critical look at them. Conversations like THIS, where things are civil and people are making cogent, clear arguments, are how it starts.

"Grr, why does everyone want to take away MY GODDAMN FUN!?" - Said a white, American man since forever.

The game industry deserves the same level of scrutiny and criticism as every other medium, it's not just toys for children, anymore.

I don't know why people would get mad at this if you can't talk about the problem

The problem will never get sloved

Siths often deal in absolutes, but they are not the only ones who do so.

Regarding the gaming side of thing, I agree that some people tend to over-analyze a lot of what's in games lately. But I also think there is good reason to stay critical of what kind of message the industry gives it's audience. Because it's part of what shapes the attitudes of those exposed to it. Especially when they are younger. I remember an episode of WTF with Marc Maron interviewing another comedian that "came out" on his show. He gave a pretty great example of how to think about these things. Which basically boiled down to acting and speaking in a way that promotes an open and welcoming atmosphere for everyone. He brought up the notion of jokes between friends that may contain slurs against specific kinds of people. Even if everyone in the group is against a certain mindset and only joking to joke between friends, anyone that overhear their jokes will miss the the context and only hear the words of the joke. And the atmosphere around them is less welcoming whether they meant to do that or not. And even if no one overhear them, the attitude is contagious within the group.

After hearing that, I changed the way I approached jokes with friends and even within closed doors I'm doing my best to actually purge a certain type of attitude to grow. When it comes to games though, I believe a similar logic could be applied whether it be in regards to what kind of attitudes we project as a society through games or how we as a community of enthusiasts regard such subjects.

As with a lot of these discussions, I always find it interesting to see what it all boils down to; one group not wanting to be treated or depicted a certain way, and one not wanting the world to change because whatever the issue is doesn't affect them. Hey, how about a little compassion as opposed to navel gazing self-interest.

Which brings me to the last part, on the subject of gender identity. We recently adopted the word "hen" in Sweden to be a gender neutral word to refer to a person (such as him/her). I always thought it was a bit stupid, but this thread actually made me see why such a word usage in certain situations to be pretty good. I mean, I wouldn't use it when I actually knew the gender of the individual, but as a general it's not that bad. Strange how the odd thing can completely shift how you view the world.

I wouldn't be human without some level of hypocrisy, I still think people take "internet" too seriously and should learn to moderate their own feeds and block people they don't actually like. With such an information overload we're living in today, a lot of people would benefit greatly from trimming their options of outrage.

Also, the "I have black/gay/transgendered/etc friends" is the classic go to defense for a bigot. All Gabe did with that blog post was to try to make himself the victim.

Not really. He specifically said he's always open to a conversation. One joke isn't the sign of a bigot. But I don't like to make hasty judgements and label folks.

It's right to ask what the fuck this shit has to do with video games, because no one can ever present evidence that there is any abnormal level of harassment or bigotry against women or LBGTQs. All the posturing is contemptuous drivel that requires the reader to stop using logic and instead accept appeals to emotion. Abloobloobloo, the world doesn't cater to your needs as 0.00001% of the population. If you aren't suffering actual discrimination at the hands of the games industry and resort to saying "Princess Peach is removing the agency of women!" you need to sit the fuck down, you are a part of the problem. That is to say, a problem totally unconnected to gaming, the problem of tumblr toddlers leaking out of their containment site to promote their religion.

Men cannot have video games according to "feminists." This is not about the patriarchy or legitimate mistreatment of women, it's about encroaching on a space dominated by men and trying to curtail it to financially better yourself and other professional victims. Video games should be about fun, not the money, this tumblr shit has reached far beyond the point where it can be tolerated, it needs to stop.

Before I get someone quoting me and saying "lol this is the typical cis white heretro male response," I point out that there is a grand hypocrisy in obsessing over one's entitlement when your entire belief system centers around you being a special snowflake who needs care and attention. This is not equality, it is inequality based on revenge politics, if this is feminism it's an extremely twisted version.

It's funny for people to tell others to calm down in regards to Gabe, considering he made it his personal mission to ruin one man's life(Which he succeeded in doing), because he considered him a 'bully'.

Some thicker skin would do this industry a world of good, honestly: Too sensitive is too right.

I'm a proponent of letting people play watch, read, and play what they want (except in extreme cases of course). I see no shame in this kind of liberty. It's simply the way the industry has developed, built by those who have been buying games for the past thirty years... it's part of the industry's heritage and history, like it or not.

There's nothing wrong with developing more inclusive games in the future, but calling out existing tastes for that reason seems puerile and misguided.

But social justice seems to be at odds with freedom of expression, association, or even opinion as battle-lines are drawn in this debate. I know where I stand on this issue, and it sure isn't with those who think Gabe is a monster. Good writeup, EpicSteve, your response(s) to this have been interesting to read.

Your making sweeping generalizations which could be made about women who speak out against the harassment they face. Every time they speak out they're dismissed as being "sensitive". These people aren't complaining to get attention, this is a real, well-documented problem they face everyday and saying they should grow thicker skin is not the solution.

Don't you see the irony in this whole situation. These women are doing exactly the same thing as you're doing in this very blog post! You say "everyone needs to be prepared to be called out on their bullshit" and that's what people are doing with Gabe. He made what is seen by many as transphobic comments and people are calling him out on it. The only one who got sensitive about the whole thing was Gabe. I, you or any other non-female person shouldn't be dictating what women should or shouldn't find sexist, that's entirely up for them to decide.

I said in the blog everyone is potentially being too sensitive. Both sides are appearing to be too quick at making judgements. But yeah, good on people for calling Gabe out.

PRrblbrblrblrbrrlblbbblllllrrrrrr.......

It wasn't one joke. He was forced to apologized about this exact same thing a few weeks ago. It was willful ignorance. He already knew he was offending people.

I want people to have realistic discussions. Not just one side calling the other side a monster and sending their white knights after them. What happened to people talking to each other calmly?

Oh, and this: Takes two to throw stones in a war just as much as it takes two to listen in a diplomacy.

This blog discussion so far proves Giant Bomb is one of the only places we can have these civil discussion. Most people have been really cool and realistic so far.

"You got the Anita Sarkeesian side of this industry of super pre-feminists that instead of opening up conversations, they just assume they're 100% right and while they're fighting for a social issue, they're just throwing a tantrum instead of being mature about the topic."

Are you serious? Anita Sarkeesina videos series is ABOUT opening up the conversation on topics, it seems those who are attacking her are the ones who seem to be having the most tantrums.

Here is a hint, if you spit out the word feminist like an epithet or insult you probably have some deep thinking to do about yourself. If what you read uses the world feminist like an epithet or insult you probably should consider a wider reading list. Because any time your own argument or the arguments you agree with include insults you have already lost the thread of logical thinking.

My apologies. The giant bomb community has been great in this blog. I was more speaking on what happens on twitter.

Seriously... doesn't anyone remember the whole dickwolves thing?

Gabe being woefully misinformed about transsexuals and being actively hurtful does not surprise me at all.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH VIDEO GAMES YOU GUYS

Holy fucking jumpin Jesus. What the fuck is going on in this thread? What world do we live in when perfectly rational arguments with valid points which was never by any means intended to offend a certain group gets misconstrued as inflammatory and sexist?! It's all a distraction I tell you.

Also feminist ≠ egalitarianism.

No, I don't stalk the man. If he's been weird in the past than I'll retract my last statement.

basically, dickwolves was a (pretty bad, but not super actively hurtful) rape joke comic that should've just been an apology from them and that would be that.

Instead, he (I think it was just him, I don't remember Mike in any of it) escalated it way higher than it needed to be, including an apology that said he was sorry you got offended, made fun of people who dislike rape jokes (including some that had been raped), etc. It was a complete shit show, and is why I stopped reading PA in the first place.