Sounds like that McNamara needs a swift kick in the package.

I can sympathize with people who don't get credit. On the other hand, the issue of blank spots in their resume is rather silly. They can still put down projects they worked on and developers they worked for. There's nothing stopping them from doing that. Getting your name in the final credits isn't the sum total of credit anyone can claim on a project. And with decade-long development cycles on some games, one has to wonder if crediting everyone who ever worked on the game is even fair. I mean, did Duke Nukem Forever credit the people who worked on the game in the 90s? Is any of that work a part of the game? Who gets the tedious job of even figuring that out?
 
So, some of this is just whining. It's important to give people credit, but this has absolutely no effect on anyone's resumes or job prospects. Especially when most people working on those games keep copies of their own work (3D animators, modelers, writers) for their portfolios. It's easy to show samples of the work you've done on these projects. While it's nice to be given credit, in the end it's part of the individual's job to take credit when they've earned it. If you're keeping records of your own work, this is a simple process.

@Mayu_Zane said:

@jozzy said:

Why can't you say you worked on LA Noire even though you are not in the credits? If it's clear only people that finished the project are in it than employers know you could've worked for it even though you are not in the credits. You could even show your previous contract or something. Am I missing something because this whole blanc resume thing doesn't make sense to me?

No one ever reads the credits or would remember someone from the credits that wasn't already famous. Isn't it only a personal badge of honor, it doesn't mean anything to anyone else right?

As insane as it sounds, apparently there are some studios that actually refuse to believe you unless you show them you were in the game's credits. Even if you've had a previous contract, it's not enough to 'prove' that you did 'enough work', because the assumption is that if you didn't make it in the credits then you didn't do a good job.

I used to be a computer animation student and spent hours working with folks taking the games development courses; credits really are a huge deal for people serious about their work.

That does indeed sound insane, but I guess it shouldn't surprise me when we are talking about a clearly insane industry like game development. Like others have said, contacting references seems like a better way to verify someones work than just seeing if someone is in the credits. Or bringing a portfolio with past work but I guess you are not allowed to keep stuff you made because the company owns it. Also if they kept you on contract for a couple of years you were obviously doing something right for at least most of that time.

Now I am not saying that references are not abusable, but as far as I understand this credit business if you come in the office the month before release and help test a bit you'll get in the credits, but if you work on the game for 6 years and leave before release you don't.

Here is what I don't understand (I'm probably missing something so if a developer sees this please feel free to chime in):
 
Usually a resume lists your previous employers, the position you held, how long you held that position, and a brief description of the tasks you performed.  In my experience it hasnt been necessary to list specific projects you worked on.  An employer may check for references, but usually doesn't require any more information from you to get a sense of your experience.  Is this simply not true in the gaming industry?  Is a credit the only way to authenticate your work?  
 
I mean it seems to me that if your work is listed in your resume, and the previous employer confirms what you are saying that should be enough to demonstrate your experience.  Sure credit might be nice, even deserved, but I don't see how not having credit hampers your ability to find work elsewhere and progress your career.  Again, maybe I'm missing something?

what perplexes me is why time invested on a job isn't regarded as fact. Yes there should be an indication of inclusive dates there (on a project), and the reason why one left. Thats the same in any industry. I guess I do not see it so much as 'credit' as time worked. Perhaps a different record for those who completed a project, or their part of a project, should get a listing in the credits. But dates worked should be valid also.

I work in the games industry and I while I can understand the frustration of not getting credits, this article plays up the issue much worse then it is. In my experience, there has never been a requirement to actually be in the credits in order to put a project on your resume. If people could not put list projects that were canceled, games that have no credits or games that they left before completion, then everyone's resume would like they were fresh from school.

@buft said:

@Agent47 said:

@buft said:

I walked past team bondis office and farted, i wasnt credited and nor did i expect to be but it is ironic that doing this near the duke nukem team would have got me a special thanks.

The fuck?

my social commentary on how gearbox worked hard to get people credited even if they had done very little with duke nukem and how that varies from L.A Noire and team Bondi.

It's an industry wide problem. You don't understand the issue at hand or the concept of social commentary, nor do you get what Randy did in taking on the Duke Nukem Forever deal - he made sure many of his longterm compatriots from 3DR fucking got payed and their efforts got recognised, hence why they were credited - there was no such white knight for the Team Bondi people. Many of the people who weren't credited for LA Noire had only ever worked on LA Noire and left or got retrenched with nothing to show for it on paper - even after years of work.

Whatever, she knew that going in. If she wasn't ok with that, then she shouldn't have accepted the job.

Unions, please!

@darkjester74: It just makes the progress longer and more difficult I expect.

@buft said:

@Agent47 said:

@buft said:

I walked past team bondis office and farted, i wasnt credited and nor did i expect to be but it is ironic that doing this near the duke nukem team would have got me a special thanks.

The fuck?

my social commentary on how gearbox worked hard to get people credited even if they had done very little with duke nukem and how that varies from L.A Noire and team Bondi.

Your "social commentary" is lazy. And pretty unfounded, too. Also, kind of a dick move to trivialize these people's experiences. Working for years on a project is unusual as it is, just because they didn't spend the whole decade that this game took working on it doesn't mean they did nothing. Nothing here is saying "you worked for 5 seconds on this game before you were fired for being a pervy asshole, and you deserve a credit."

@sickVisionz said:

Sounds like a union is needed but I doubt the games industry has many who would be willing to strike to get their situation improved.

I'm definitely hoping the industry stops being terrified of unionization in the next few years, it's something that would improve conditions and outcomes a lot. It's sad that people stop working on a project that looks like it's going to tank after putting a lot of work into it, but don't get a credit. I mean, I can kind of understand if you worked on like, the very first iteration of say, Diablo 3, and then quit before things progressed, and then weren't credited (maybe like a special thinks thing or something), but this is just kinda sad. It's not their fault they were involved in what was at the time, as far as I've heard, a failing project. Or, maybe it is, but I doubt that. While I agree that there should be a reward for sticking with things and going through crunch and all that, it shouldn't be a credit, it should be the natural consequences of that action. Overtime, pride in the game you produced, not being unemployed, the experience you share with the team, etc. are what you should get from sticking with a game till the end.

Keep up the good work, Patrick. You need to stir up more shit, because sadly, it's what is required most of the time in order to obtain change.

Credits ..... as a gamer dont give a rat ass about them , heck if they could be removed from the game the better , and yes people do deserve to get a credit for their work but for us gamers that has no real meaning in our experience of the media.

Whatever, she knew that going in. If she wasn't ok with that, then she shouldn't have accepted the job.

What are the actual consequences for somebody if their name doesn't make the credits? Is it just a pride thing? Plenty of people in society work much harder jobs than this and the end user / consumer never knows their name. They do typically get paid for their time though, which is probably something the Bondi guys should have been more concerned about.

Credits ..... as a gamer dont give a rat ass about them , heck if they could be removed from the game the better , and yes people do deserve to get a credit for their work but for us gamers that has no real meaning in our experience of the media.

@buft said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@buft said:

@Agent47 said:

@buft said:

I walked past team bondis office and farted, i wasnt credited and nor did i expect to be but it is ironic that doing this near the duke nukem team would have got me a special thanks.

The fuck?

my social commentary on how gearbox worked hard to get people credited even if they had done very little with duke nukem and how that varies from L.A Noire and team Bondi.

It's an industry wide problem. You don't understand the issue at hand or the concept of social commentary, nor do you get what Randy did in taking on the Duke Nukem Forever deal - he made sure many of his longterm compatriots from 3DR fucking got payed and their efforts got recognised, hence why they were credited - there was no such white knight for the Team Bondi people. Many of the people who weren't credited for LA Noire had only ever worked on LA Noire and left or got retrenched with nothing to show for it on paper - even after years of work.

maybe, but there are worse things to be, but you of course already knew that. hey guys have you seen how retentive this guys anus is?

For someone who dribbles a lot of shit you really should be more worried about the state of your own anus.

@Jimbo said:

What are the actual consequences for somebody if their name doesn't make the credits? Is it just a pride thing? Plenty of people in society work much harder jobs than this and the end user / consumer never knows their name. They do typically get paid for their time though, which is probably something the Bondi guys should have been more concerned about.

It's a matter of resume validation. Creative industries all have crediting processes and this is a valid response to a problem which needs to be resolved.

@Buzzkill said:

It should be written into law that if you work on a project for x months then you're guarenteed credit.

Shouldn'it just be that if any of the work you did remains in the final product that you should get credit? Think of how many people worked on Duker Nukem Forever that contributed to development of material that was never used in the game because they only worked on really old builds during the first or second engine designs. If they get a special thanks nod that's one thing, but why should they get coding/writing/art credits if nothing they did is actually in the game by the time it's released?

I understand that with people cycling in and out of studios that it becomes more difficult to assign proper credit, but the idea that only people who worked on the project at completion seems ludicrous to me. If there was a game that had a 24 month dev-cycle in which an animator worked for the first 16 months, and then a new animator did the final 8 their is no justification for that first animator not to get their credit

I feel like everyone who works at Team Bondi should just leave now that they have LA NOIRE on their resumes. I mean all these stories make it seem like a terrible work environment.

Unionize that shit! Employees shouldn't have to take that sort of treatment. As much as I applaud, say, McNamara for his game design vision he sure sounds like an entitled dick when confronted with issues like these.

Hey guys..i know this sucks and all..but lets settle down before we start calling for unionization..please...games are expensive enough already.  Who knows how bad the industry as a whole will start hurting if  devs unionize, prices go up, and more people  run to used games because they cant afford new ones.

after all the stories breaking out of the horrendous happenings in bondi offices i have decided to not invest in the dlc of L.A. Noire and not get anything else they're putting out. Vote with your wallets people

@Phished0ne said:

Hey guys..i know this sucks and all..but lets settle down before we start calling for unionization..please...games are expensive enough already. Who knows how bad the industry as a whole will start hurting if devs unionize, prices go up, and more people run to used games because they cant afford new ones.

Ugh. Movie ticket prices are fine. Indie movies get made. The movie industry has Unions. Multiples thereof for each aspect of production including catering and it's been rolling along for decades!

@Sputty: As a former developer who worked under shitty conditions, everybody better hope unionization doesnt happen. Unless you want your games to cost twice as much or not come out at all, developers need to work their own problems out without resorting to creating a centralized bureaucracy that will take a large cut of every developer's pay and slow every production to a crawl.

This isn't a problem with movies or TV shows. You know why?

They have unions.

So, if you're not listed in the credits, you can't put the game (or even the time you spent working on it) in your resumée? Who came up with that awful idea? That's a real asshole move

Pretty stupid stuff. Anyone who worked on a game should be credited at least in some small way as not only proof that they did such but as a sign of respect for the work that they did.

Game companies need to grow a conscience.

I feel like they should be allowed to sue for damages if they aren't credited

I can't believe the editorial value you bring to this site, Patrick. This is what SHOULD be the "new games journalism". I mean, you do JOURNALISM! Tracking down sources, getting first-hand quotes, making analysis, providing opinions and predictions! It's almost like you're a real media person.

@VisariLoyalist said:

I feel like they should be allowed to sue for damages if they aren't credited

Sadly, if they're not explicitly promised full accreditation in their contracts or something, there's nothing really they can do. If the employee can say "our policy is that only people who stick with the project until the end are given credit and the former employee was informed of this policy," said former employees don't have a case.

Reading this reminded me of something Dave Lang said on one of the GDC podcasts about how they handle crediting at Iron Galaxy, where his attitude basically came down to (as least, as I heard it): "Shut up and stop worrying about it; we'll get you." I get where he's coming from in the sense that maybe you should focus on getting the work done before worrying about how you're going to be presented in the credits for your work, but this kind of attitude strikes me as the reason we get articles like this. Someone at these teams should be worried about making sure that the people who contributed to a project and without whom a game would not have been possible are getting the credit they deserve. There may be ways to fill in those holes in a resume, but the idea that there even are holes in resumes that need to be accounted for proves that the system as it is now is kind of broken.

Hopefully, developers unionize in some form to protect themselves from exploitation.

As far as credit goes and leaving development etc. What's wrong with simply listing how long an employee worked on a project?
 
So and so (Through completion)
So and so (Two years)

This seems pretty bad, not because it will prevent people from getting further work. But because there is an atmosphere of apathy toward people who worked hard for your company that you can't even acknowledge in the game. Not being involved in the game to the VERY end shouldn't matter. This seems like something that the publisher should really take responsibility for, after all, if people are worried about getting properly credited they might not work for you or as well.

From my impression of the industry (through friends) in some companies credits are a last minute "who cares" kind of thing. if you are at the company at the time of the credits being made then you are in.

This news is really par for the course. Recently I worked as an editor on Rock of Ages but I won't be credited for it because the game went to master while I was still working on it. But I suppose it's a bigger deal if you have AAA blockbuster titles on your resume.

@SeriouslyNow:  are you kidding me?...  There's already a vast majority of people who flat out refuse to buy games because they are too expensive.  Sure, movie tickets are still relatively cheap...even though in the 50s movie tickets were like 50 cents, and in the 80s movie tickets were 3 dollars, but whos to say how much the prices of games will rise if they unionize.     Its a proven fact that unions inflate consumer prices, because soon after they get their credits on everything, they will demand more money.    We dont need a union, no one is trying to silence devs, we heard about these issues, we heard about overworking and not crediting devs.  like patrick said,   " If the IGDA's prediction that more and more developers are being left off credits is true, we need more developers to be brave enough to come forward, and gaming advocates need to champion them on."  We dont  need unions, we just need people to be aware, and we need articles like this to bring it to everyone's attention.  We need devs to speak up, but jumping all the way to unions is a bit drastic in my opinion.

@darkjester74: This.

Credits seem to be outdated and unnecessary in this day and age. Maybe the industry needs to mature a little and stop getting so hung up on such a minor thing.

@Ronald: Yes, actors cut out of the movie don't receive any credit, because their work isn't in the finished product. But these people had work that went into the finished game, they made some contributions to it.

great article, patrick. you sure know how to get those juicy quotes.

Eh, fuck Team BOndi

It's pretty naive to suggest unionizing the games industry would have a positive impact, especially over something as ultimately trivial as a credits scroll. If you work on a game and don't have something to show for it, you're piss poor at maintaining a portfolio.

@LKPOWER: I do not understand how not having your name in rolling credits means you didn't "Officially" work on a project. People spend years in other professions on projects and do not need their names written down for the world to see to make it "Official". Next time you walk by a skyscraper in your city do you look at it and think it was put there magically? Or do you realize that many people spent many years building and designing it and although you do not see their names anywhere you appreciate their work? In the end who worked on that building doesn't really matter to you or to anyone not in the industry, much like credits.

Also I do not think you can liken the hundreds of names found in credits at the end of movies, TV or video games to the 1 name in a byline attached to a written article.

Trying to find a name in credits of a large game seems to be more of a hassle than just doing a quick reference check I'd imagine.

Credits are so important to a game, they shouldn't be shrugged off. When I completed Deus Ex for the first time, the credits rolled and I felt a feeling of greatness resonating from the names of the individuals that made up Ion Storm. Credits have become something I truly look forward to when I finish a game. Every development team should try to put their absolute best work into their game to achieve the impact that Ion Storm was able to achieve when the names rolled.

So this is a follow up to the IGN story? Would have been nice to go after someone other than Team Bondi.

I completely disagree in the notion that unions would harm the industry. Unions don't make demands for no reason, but, yes, if game developers aren't currently compensated fairly for their work, then they will, without a doubt, demand higher wages - they should be paid what they are worth, shouldn't they?
 
Either way, I'm sure game developers, and their potential unions, won't be stupid enough to destroy the profitability of their own industry by driving prices up, nor would they be stupid enough to chase their employers to China. No one should expect unions to ask for money if the money isn't there to give, because they won't.
 
The idea that unions are these greedy, money-grabbing organizations is completely unfounded. Employers and employees have a shared interest in staying competitive. For example: the past few years have seen a great number of unions accept pay-cuts across the board to help their respective industries make it through the recession.
 
At the end of the day, unions help greatly improve the working conditions of their workers, and that's all that really matters. I can't get myself to be against unionization just because there's a small chance I'd have to pay a small bit more for my games. Game developers are people too, thus deserve to be treated with respect just as the rest of us, and if their employers wont give that respect to them voluntarily, then they should band together and take it.