Mudo and Hama kill my enthusiasm for this game.

#1 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

I am not very far into this game. I have not come across any items that prevent insta-deaths from normal play.

When I go from floor 1 to floor 9 out of 10 floors total, and then get one-shotted by a low level monster out of sheer luck it ruins me. I take the game out as quickly as possible. I should not have to use an item to jump out of the dungeon, save, and then go back in due to fear of being cheated. If I could save anywhere, it wouldn't be such a big deal. If those pointless spells did not exist, it would be much better.

It's not like I ever want to test my luck for a one-shot, and the bosses are never vulnerable to it anyways. Why do they exist in terms of serving the game's overall feel, or making it more fun for me? I hate them.

Rant over.

#2 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19329 posts) -

It's not complicated: if there are enemies that use Mudo/Hama, equip Personae that are impervious to those skills. You're asking to be killed if you don't bother taking the necessary precautions.

#3 Posted by StrikeALight (1114 posts) -

Yeah, it sucks.

Please refer to Ep. 81 of the P4 endurance run.

#4 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

I'm sort of glad the game sucker punched me a few times. It made me feel so proud beating some of the bosses.

It does feel like luck sometimes though.

#5 Posted by Red (5994 posts) -

Yeah, it's hella annoying, but, as others said, always keep a Persona impervious, or at least strong against Light/Dark abilities on you at all times, and just switch over to it until all Mudoers are dealt with.

#6 Posted by Aetheldod (3554 posts) -

@huntad: Welcome to a Shin Megami Tensei game .... have a nice day ;)

#7 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ: No, what I'm asking is why they even exist, haha. I'm trying to get into the developer mindset and attempt to ask myself what the purpose of these hideous creations actually is. Other than creating a shallow precaution, there is no reason I can think of to justify their existence. If I could revive myself through my allies, then it wouldn't be as big of a deal either, and would actually create an extremely thin layer of strategy to what is kind of dumb.

@StrikeALight: Actually, I will do that. I haven't gotten that far in, but I'll check it out right now. Thanks!

#8 Edited by WatanabeKazuma (989 posts) -

Its a SMT staple, although it is horrible the first time it happens to you. They're balanced skills in so much that they have low odds of hitting as base spells, except when the AI uses them, then you just better pray that luck is on your side.

When you reach a certain point a lot of powerful enemies will have light/dark weaknesses, then its just a matter of managing your own SP whilst you smoke fools.

Also Homunculus is a fail-safe, it basically negates a successful hit. Make sure to get a hold of some.

#9 Posted by PenguinDust (12493 posts) -

I had some trouble early on as well, but if you stick with it, it soon turns around. Once you get the right tools, and use them properly, it's not terribly difficult. Hang in there.

#10 Posted by Sanaj (170 posts) -

Homunculus is a nice fail-safe item to have in case you get ambushed by enemies that cast Hama or Mudo.

The Resist Light / Dark skills reduces the chance of instant death, also voids weakness to Light / Dark.

There are also Endure Light / Dark skills that allow you to survive one of those attacks with 1 HP once per battle.

Or the less dangerous option the Null Light / Dark skills that grant immunity even if your persona could otherwise be weak against Light / Dark spells.

#11 Posted by MasturbatingestBear (1190 posts) -

@huntad said:

@FluxWaveZ: No, what I'm asking is why they even exist, haha. I'm trying to get into the developer mindset and attempt to ask myself what the purpose of these hideous creations actually is. Other than creating a shallow precaution, there is no reason I can think of to justify their existence. If I could revive myself through my allies, then it wouldn't be as big of a deal either, and would actually create an extremely thin layer of strategy to what is kind of dumb.

@StrikeALight: Actually, I will do that. I haven't gotten that far in, but I'll check it out right now. Thanks!

If you are going to say things like that you could ask why they include bufu, or garu, or agi, or zio or anything.

Just invest in Goho-M's and always punch out every couple of floors. And save.

#12 Posted by PerfidiousSinn (744 posts) -

This stuff makes me so paranoid that I never equip a Persona that's weak to Hama/Mudo.

Back in my day you would always die from those spells if you weren't Strong against them or Nulled them.

#13 Posted by MasturbatingestBear (1190 posts) -

P3P at least has the homonculus item which automatically is used when someone is hit with a hama or mudo that prevents them from dying. You get those things like crazy.

#14 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

@MasturbatingestBear: That's kind of a stretch, because those other elemental skills do not insta-kill the player if they hit every time. I would never make that statement. Part of the strategy is taking enemies down and preventing yourself from being taken down. The difference is that if you are hit with regular spells that you're weak to, you have a chance to recover and learn from your mistakes on the fly. There are times where I fight an enemy that an instant kill skill, but I never see it use it. Then I come across it again, and it uses it and I'm dead. No chance to recover.

I do not have access to homonculus right now that I know of, so it's not as easy as stocking up on it yet.

Just to clarify, I've beaten Persona 3 FES, so I know the preventative measures that need to be taken to avoid this. It's just a shame that it's even in there. It's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but when it happens it really, really sucks. Persona 3/4 are great games, but the inclusion of these two types of spells leave me feeling cheated at times. That's all I'm trying to get across.

#15 Posted by ch3burashka (5040 posts) -

Yeah, it sucks... it's unreliable when you use it on enemies, and hella annoying when they use it on you.

@MasturbatingestBear said:

P3P at least has the homonculus item which automatically is used when someone is hit with a hama or mudo that prevents them from dying. You get those things like crazy.

So did P3FES, and I'm sure P4 had them toward the end...?

#16 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19329 posts) -
@huntad: Well, there's obviously a reason that those elemental spells exist or they wouldn't be in the game at all. Maybe the developers thought it was yet another way of forcing the player to change Persona to those that have a resistance to the insta-kill moves when the players get too accustomed to using the same ones without those resistances. Maybe they thought it would be a suitable punishment for players when they get too careless in battle and only think about their enemies' weaknesses, not taking into account what their enemies can pull off offensively.... 
 
If it manages to frustrate you, most likely that's exactly what the designers wanted to do.
#17 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19329 posts) -
@huntad: Well, there's obviously a reason that those elemental spells exist or they wouldn't be in the game at all. Maybe the developers thought it was yet another way of forcing the player to change Persona to those that have a resistance to the insta-kill moves when the players get too accustomed to using the same ones without those resistances. Maybe they thought it would be a suitable punishment for players when they get too careless in battle and only think about their enemies' weaknesses, not taking into account what their enemies can pull off offensively.... 
 
If it manages to frustrate you, most likely that's exactly what the designers wanted to do.
#18 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@huntad: based on your last statement I would advise against playing nocturne then

they include those spells because they hate you.

#19 Posted by MiniPato (2732 posts) -

Oh? OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!!! NO WAY DUDE!

#20 Posted by Undeadpool (4923 posts) -

@huntad: The real issue is that if your main character goes down, you lose. That's what I hated. In my mind, it should start a countdown and then you'd have something like one full turn rotation to bring him back. But I feel your pain and had almost the same reaction, though I recommend you persevere. The game's got a LOT to offer and there are VERY few enemies that use those abilities. Also you eventually get an item called "The Homunculus" that just sits in your inventory (and you can have more than one) that get auto-used if an insta-death attack hits you. And by the time you start encountering lots of enemies that use them, you have a TON of those so it's not as big of a deal.

Whew! That post turned out longer than I expected.

#21 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19329 posts) -
@Undeadpool: Having the game end when the main character is knocked out probably made more sense when you didn't have control of your party members like in Persona 3 or Final Fantasy XIII. Yeah, it's difficult to imagine why the system is that way in Persona 4.
#22 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

@Animasta: lol, I had Nocturne, but it was a little too serious for what I was looking for. I'll stick to Persona. :)

#23 Posted by Undeadpool (4923 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ: PRECISELY! I completely see your point there! But yeah, in P4 the first thing I do with EVERY party member is assume direct control, so this always struck me as needlessly archaic.

#24 Posted by Commisar123 (1791 posts) -

@Undeadpool said:

@huntad: The real issue is that if your main character goes down, you lose. That's what I hated. In my mind, it should start a countdown and then you'd have something like one full turn rotation to bring him back. But I feel your pain and had almost the same reaction, though I recommend you persevere. The game's got a LOT to offer and there are VERY few enemies that use those abilities. Also you eventually get an item called "The Homunculus" that just sits in your inventory (and you can have more than one) that get auto-used if an insta-death attack hits you. And by the time you start encountering lots of enemies that use them, you have a TON of those so it's not as big of a deal.

Whew! That post turned out longer than I expected.

Yeah this. Basically it sucks, but don't give up because there is so much good stuff in those games, especially P4.

#25 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

@Undeadpool: Oh, and I wanted to thank you for the lengthy, nice post. I also hate how your main character is the make it/break it factor in a lot of the battles. But, it's really the only game that has the whole social link thing that I know of, and I really like that. I'm hoping to find Homunculus sometime. Again, thanks for the help.

#26 Posted by SlightConfuse (3963 posts) -

yea its annoying since if the MC dies no one can revive him for some reason

#27 Posted by endaround (2142 posts) -

Once you get the party SLs up to where the other characters will take a blow for you it becomes much less of a problem.

#28 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19329 posts) -
@endaround: Yeah, but that will only make a real difference for the non "Ma" prefixed spells.
#29 Posted by Undeadpool (4923 posts) -

@huntad: Happy to help! P3 and P4 are two of the best JRPGs to come out in a LONG time, so anything to help a fellow player not give up on an amazing RPG experience.

#30 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@huntad said:

@FluxWaveZ: No, what I'm asking is why they even exist, haha.

Same reason buffs/debuff, status effects and healing spells exist: They add another layer of strategy to the game and give you more options in combat. Casting hama is a risk/reward proposition, which balances killing powerful enemies with ease vs. conserving SP/keeping a turn.

Instakill spells in games like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest- where using them is a waste of your resources and getting hit by them is easy to shrug off- are way more pointless to me.

@huntad said:

It's not like I ever want to test my luck for a one-shot

Maybe you should! Hama has a 30% base chance, Hamaon has 50% base chance and you can boost it with an additional 15% by giving your Persona "Hama boost".

Also, if an enemy is weak to Hama/Mudo, you get a 100% certain one-shot kill.

....Lastly, I'd hardly call it a "shallow precaution" if you haven't been able to easily avoid getting hit so far :P

Hama/Mudo enemies force you to vary up your Persona fusion, so you'll always carry the appropriate Persona to survive the hits. They add incentive to retreat from the dungeon when you get far enough and give you more options in a battle.

#31 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

@mutha3: I had a lot written out to you as a response, but it was too much for what I wanted to say. Basically, the moves are cheap, and shallow. Sure, there are ways around them, but it's annoying even when successfully preventing it. The other elemental skills allow for on-the-fly adaptations that I gladly/happily account for. These other two skills are one-hit, chance-based game enders that prevent any kind of retaliation. Also note that this happened to me pretty early on when none of that stuff you're talking about existed, or was apparent at all.

I would vary my personas and fusion just fine without mudo/hama, so it wouldn't change anything if they were absent. Risk/reward is fine, and I take chances all the time when fighting new enemies trying to discover their weaknesses. It's challenging and fun just like that. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think I'll change my stance on the spells. Thanks for the response, though, it's well written and well-thought out.

I like the rest of the game, and I will continue playing though it (just as I completed Persona 3 FES).

#32 Edited by WilltheMagicAsian (1544 posts) -

Eh, if you hate Hama/Mudo now, play the game on Hard. Persona 3 FES on Hard can get annoying sometimes with the one-hit kills. At least in the beginning.

#33 Edited by Neurotic (632 posts) -

Eh, they're a minor annoyance. I can count the number of times that I've died due to Hama/Mudo on one hand (even whilst playing on Expert). Your party members should save you from successful single-target versions, it's Mahama(on) and Mamudo(on) that you want to watch out for. If you played Persona 3 then you must be used to them by now, Persona 4 gives those spells to less enemies and makes it easier to survive them. Enemy Advantage will probably get you killed more often, although I guess that is within your power to prevent.

I'll agree that MC dying=game over is dumb though. At least in Persona 3 it could be sort of explained away but there's not so much of an excuse in 4. I'll also agree that using Hama/Mudo yourself is not terribly efficient except in the Heaven dungeon. A surprising amount of enemies in that dungeon are weak to Light/Dark.

#34 Posted by Sayishere (1840 posts) -

I found P3 worse for cheap insta deaths, but yeah i agree with ya. When i played P4 i actually never used those goho for a long ass time. I tryed to go through all the floors of a dungeon without saving, huge mistake.

#35 Edited by QuistisTrepe (628 posts) -

Could have swore RPGs of the past had insta-death attacks. Perhaps it was all just my imagination.

Like others have said, it's just another obstacle that requires you to plan around. Would you prefer there were less difficulty?

#36 Posted by WatanabeKazuma (989 posts) -

@huntad: These games are always at their most difficult towards the beginning, once you have more Persona slots/skills it all naturally balances out. I'd go as far to say that the light/dark spells are the only things preventing the game from becoming a total pushover. Death spells are prevalent in RPG's, its hardly out of left-field.

Once you have the appropriate passive skills (those that boost your own odds) you'll quickly come around, Persona that are immune also can be fused relatively early. The more you know...

Be glad its not FES we're talking about, in which almost every encounter is against enemies that deflect their own weaknesses!

#37 Posted by fRAWRst (236 posts) -

Rofl

Nocturne would eat you alive

weakling

#38 Edited by Turambar (6739 posts) -
@huntad said:

@FluxWaveZ: No, what I'm asking is why they even exist, haha. I'm trying to get into the developer mindset and attempt to ask myself what the purpose of these hideous creations actually is. Other than creating a shallow precaution, there is no reason I can think of to justify their existence. If I could revive myself through my allies, then it wouldn't be as big of a deal either, and would actually create an extremely thin layer of strategy to what is kind of dumb.

@StrikeALight: Actually, I will do that. I haven't gotten that far in, but I'll check it out right now. Thanks!

They exist to punish you for mistakes.  Don't want to get punished?  Don't make said mistakes.  Also, there do exist shields that protect you from hama and mudo.  It's called your party members.  The lv 1 S.Link bonus is them taking a death blow for you and that includes hama and mudo.  S.Link bonuses however do not work when in rush mode.

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