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Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair Review

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A sequel that's just as crazy and ridiculous and fun as its predecessor, even if it suffers from many of the same faults.

If you're surprised to already see a review of Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair, you're not experiencing amnesia. Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc was released on Vita earlier this year! Thanks to the extended time it took for these twisted visual novels to come here--they hit PSP in Japan years ago--we're getting them practically back-to-back. It's not a moment too soon, either, given how Danganronpa left us hanging. Danganronpa proved one of the most surreal experiences I've had with a game all year, even if Danganronpa was never able to justify the tacked-on interactive elements meant to make it feel more game-y. Danganraonpa 2 valiantly tries to double down on this idea, but ultimately ends up making the game even less fun to play over time. You're here for the crazy story, which remains the series' strength, and if the shocked reactions to the game's story have you interested, it's a good place to start.

Chiaki is the Ultimate Gamer, and has some of the game's best (and meta) lines.
Chiaki is the Ultimate Gamer, and has some of the game's best (and meta) lines.

If you're unfamiliar with Danganronpa's premise...well, try to stay with me here. There will be some mild Danganronpa spoilers, but I'm not going to ruin very much. Hope's Peak Academy is a school where the best of the best go to perfect their individual craft. In this world, they're labeled "ultimates," which reflects their particular skill. This can range from Ultimate Pop Sensation to Ultimate Programmer to Ultimate Bike Gang Leader. It's an, uh, eclectic bunch. The school itself is dedicated to studying the nature of talent, explaining its recruiting process. When the students arrive, however, they're immediately knocked unconscious, and wake up in a tattered version of Hope's Peak Academy. Not only are they locked in, but a robotic, sarcastic bear named Monokuma says there are two options. One, the students can live out the rest of their lives in relative peace but never leave. Two, the students can kill one another, and if the murderer gets away with his or her crime, they'll be able to leave, but everyone else dies. You can imagine where it goes from there. In the sequel, it's the same premise, but it takes places on a tropical island. Players are cast into the role of Hajime Hinata, a student who doesn't remember his talent.

At the end of Danganronpa, a few students leave the school. It's not clear what happened to them, and Danganronpa 2 immediately starts playing with this idea, since Danganronpa players will immediately recognize a physically larger version of a returning character. What's he doing here? How come this killing game is playing out a second time? These questions are at the core of Danganronpa 2, and while playing the original will make everything that happens (especially towards the end) more satisfying, the vast majority of the game is playable for anyone who wants to dive into this bizarre series with the sequel.

The game itself is split into three distinct phases of gameplay: free time, investigation, class trial. During free time, players talk with the other students and learn about their backstories. It's a completely optional part of the game, but one that's recommended, as it allows players to discover the motivations behind their favorite characters. Plus, the writing is really goddamn funny, and the more chances to experience the tremendously witty dialogue, the better. Investigation is triggered upon the discovery of a murdered student, and has players exploring and analyzing crime scenes to come up with scraps of evidence for the coming trial. The evidence is written in your handbook as "truth bullets" because you, er, "fire" them at logical contradictions raised during the class trial. I don't care what anyone says, truth bullets is a rad term.

Class trials are a timed affair, which means players are rushed, even if there's no real consequence for failing.
Class trials are a timed affair, which means players are rushed, even if there's no real consequence for failing.

The class trial is where players become the most active, and it's where the series continues to falter relative to other detective games. In a nutshell, players apply evidence gathered during the investigation to figure out the truth. This comes in a variety of forms, but the most common is a conversation between the students in which the game assigns you a stack of evidence to contradict or confirm what's being said. Text scrolls across the screen, and certain words are highlighted while the conversation moves forward. It eventually loops. Everything is timed, though failure means little outside of a grading reduction. You can try over and over again. This starts out straightforward enough, but as the game goes on, the designers figured the best way to elevate the difficulty was to make the text extremely hard to read. It'll shake around, it'll be surrounded by other text. It's frustrating. Not helping matters is one-too-many contradictions that can't reasonably be figured out except through sheer trial-and-error. Danganronpa's interface makes it extremely difficult to consider all your evidence at once, which quickly leads to exasperated guessing.

Despite how messy and confusing the conversations get, they're the best part, and it's satisfying when you nail someone who's got it all wrong. The game will occasionally mix things up with mini-games, including a version of hangman and infuriating takes on a rhythm and platform games. As Danganronpa 2 passed the 20-hour mark, its answers just within reach, I began loudly cursing a game about deduction that was asking me to deal with yet another platforming sequence with seemingly no collision detection whatsoever.

Honestly, I started referencing a walkthrough a handful of times towards the end. I was here for the story, and only the story. There's an option to ratchet down the difficulty of the class trial, and I recommend it. It's too bad, as the most enjoyable twists come during the class trial portion. True motivations are revealed, and the tricky ways various characters pulled off the ambitious murders are part of the fun. As fun as a cartoonish game about a robotic bear forcing kids to murder each other is fun, anyway. Don't judge me!

...yeah.
...yeah.

There are other questionable elements from the original that stick around, too. For a game that otherwise does such a fantastic job of representing a wide variety of personalities and genders in its cast, it regularly goes out of its way to objectify the women under the joking guise of fan service. Akane, the Ultimate Gymnast, regularly busts out of her shirt when angry...for no reason. Compared to the original, what's different here is how it tries to justify these moments by pointing them out. Just because the game is aware of what's happening doesn't make it okay, though maybe it suggests a localization team aware of the issues. It's particularly egregious for one character who constantly finds herself tripping into the most exploitative positions, and the game laughingly pointing it out. The game tries to layer another set of justifications during the class trial, leveraging it as a piece of evidence, but it was no less ridiculous. It adds nothing.

Danganronpa 2 manages to match the madness of the previous game. In many ways, it purposely ups the ante, giving players plenty of reason to re-read old dialogue and consider previous situations in a new light. In the final hours, there are plenty of head-slapping a-ha moments that make the slightly too lengthy and murderous journey worth the ride. This is a series that takes joy in tricking the player, and not necessarily by laying out evidence along the way. The twists in Danganronpa are often out of left field, and so long as you're okay with the game constantly pulling out rugs, you're in for a good time.

Whether that madness is ultimately satisfying is another question. So much of Dangranonpa 2 is an immediate, purposeful retread in both mechanics and storytelling. That loses its charm after a while, especially when the credits begin rolling, and it becomes clear not much has ultimately advanced after the events of the original game. A similar problem plagued the equally-out-there Zero Escape series also produced by Chunsoft. This is a fun sequel spinning its wheels, capitalizing on what worked well before without real progress towards an endgame. Like most sequels, that works once, but it won't a third time.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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mattscout007

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This review is totally spot on Patrick, well done. Less fanservice would go a long way to making this crazy story that's totally worth seeing an easier recommend. I'm looking forward to getting to the end of the game, just finished case three and it's already nuts! Although, I think having played the first game is more key to enjoying this one then you said in the review.

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Socuteboss

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I think some people in this comment section need to step back, relax, and play this game.

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TheBlue

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Edited By TheBlue

Hey I think this game is pretty rad and is definitely one of my favorites this year.

You guys should really be discussing the real issue with this game:

That "Logic Dive" is the worst thing ever.

Oh, and gravel in the swimsuit.

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chrissedoff

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It's very, very funny how people point to a criticism of "fanservice" and accuse the critic of borderline censorship. Apparently, fanservice, which is by its very definition pandering to the desires and expectations of fans, is the most important battleground in the fight to protect video game developers' creative freedom.

This is like when hardcore libertarians try to say that people don't have true economic freedom because they can't own slaves. The hill they have chosen to die on is the one which totally undermines the supposed guiding principle they use to justify their argument.

Under the guise of protecting video game creators' right to free artistic expression, they've decided to go to bat hard for the parts of the game where the developer sold out and inserted some dumbass titillation on purpose in order to make a little more cash by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Critics are literally asking developers to think less about the purely commercial aspect of making video games and encouraging them to be more creative. This makes people cry censorship. It's ridiculous.

If you're one of the people who simply likes anime boobs and butts in your video games, just say so and drop all of this fake moralistic pretense.

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rjaylee

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@chrissedoff: I want to upvote/like/+1 your comment so, so much.

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RageGoblin

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I thought the ridiculous pose becoming evidence was pretty funny and clever.

Great game, better than the first. Monomi is hilarious.

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TheManWithNoPlan

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Even if the game doesn't handle certain elements well and contains questionable choices, I definitely want to try one of these out if I ever somehow end up with a Vita.

Great review Patrick.

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patrickklepek

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@theblue said:

Oh, and gravel in the swimsuit.

I almost threw my Vita.

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chet_rippo

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Really surprised Patrick played this. I loved the story but I agree- many of the minigames were terrible and felt thrown in

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DevourerOfTime

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Edited By DevourerOfTime
@theblue said:
That "Logic Dive" is the worst thing ever.

Oh, and gravel in the swimsuit.

I honestly thought that the Logic Dive was the best minigame in the court sections other than the debates. If we want to talk about godawful minigame sections, let's talk about the rhythm sections. Honestly, they were improved a lot since the first game (really like how it handles the end of the minigame), but goddamnit are they boring and needlessly frustrating messes.

And what was the problem with the spoiler? I figured that out pretty quickly? Made a lot of sense when you stopped to think about it.

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mwng

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@patrickklepek: Appreciate the review! Pleased you're still looking at some of the weirder games of the year!

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@devoureroftime: I guess I just continue to be baffled when in the same week I see the brutal violence of cutting orc's heads off in Shadows of Mordor praised yet a few panty shots are called out as a detriment to the game in Danganronpa. And yes, opinions and whatnot but I just continue to not understand peoples stance on why being okay with extreme violence in games is for the most part generally accepted and sexual content is usually much maligned. Which, I realize I'm now bringing an entirely different conversation into this so I'll just exit door left and bid everyone adieu and good day.

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patrickklepek

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@devoureroftime: I guess I just continue to be baffled when in the same week I see the brutal violence of cutting orc's heads off in Shadows of Mordor praised yet a few panty shots are called out as a detriment to the game in Danganronpa. And yes, opinions and whatnot but I just continue to not understand peoples stance on why being okay with extreme violence in games is for the most part generally accepted and sexual content is usually much maligned. Which, I realize I'm now bringing an entirely different conversation into this so I'll just exit door left and bid everyone adieu and good day.

Hey, wait! Bringing up the fact that game criticism largely ignores the prevalence of ultraviolence is actually a good point!

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DevourerOfTime

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@devoureroftime: I guess I just continue to be baffled when in the same week I see the brutal violence of cutting orc's heads off in Shadows of Mordor praised yet a few panty shots are called out as a detriment to the game in Danganronpa. And yes, opinions and whatnot but I just continue to not understand peoples stance on why being okay with extreme violence in games is for the most part generally accepted and sexual content is usually much maligned. Which, I realize I'm now bringing an entirely different conversation into this so I'll just exit door left and bid everyone adieu and good day.

I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

Of course, that's assuming the game isn't built around that aspect from the very start, which I very much doubt something like Mordor is. If there were, say, no fatalities in the new Mortal Kombat or if they weren't gratuitously violent, it'd be disappointing. Because that's what the game is built around.

But I can't really speak much about Shadow of Mordor specifically and how it handles violence. Unlike Danganronpa, I haven't played it. Hell, I haven't watched any video on it and don't really have any interest in doing so (they really only needed to say "Batman combat" for my eyes to glaze over completely). So whether it was justified in the game, I cannot say. But, considering the source material, I have some pretty big doubts.

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chrissedoff

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@patrickklepek: But not when it's cynically deployed at an inappropriate time in order to change the subject in a conversation started by a separate good point that Demoskinos doesn't like!

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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The female characters didn't dress and act in a way that I think they should.

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rusalkagirl

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@demoskinos: I think the heart of what you're saying is true, and I agree with all of my heart. However, I think a lot of the acceptance of sex vs. violence thing depends on context. There is so much room in video games to properly explore sexuality. Games with well-executed sexual content should be embraced and celebrated. But there is a way you can criticize the sexualization of a single character in a game (or other forms of media, for that matter) without disagreeing with sexual content as a whole, as I imagine Patrick is doing. (Obviously, I don't know that for sure. I just don't see Patrick as the type of person to condemn all sex in games. It is understandable for him to criticize instances where sex in games can be seen as objectifying or poorly done, though.)

Exploitative angles and jokes do not serve any purpose except maybe fanservice - for example, to titillate the straight dudes who are playing the game.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

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deactivated-5efa8ebc3319a

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I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

I disagree with this point on so many levels. Any piece of media, story or what have you, by no means needs to appeal to everybody, and is certainly not a lesser product for not doing so.

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DevourerOfTime

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Edited By DevourerOfTime

Also, can I just gush for half a second on how great Gundham Tanaka is? Because he's a fucking dork the entire game and it's fantastic.

What a dweeb. A stupid, lovable dweeb.
What a dweeb. A stupid, lovable dweeb.
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@xchairmandrekx said:
@brodehouse said:

I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

I disagree with this point on so many levels. Any piece of media, story or what have you, by no means needs to appeal to everybody, and is certainly not a lesser product for not doing so.

Pretty sure he is making fun of people's different concerns and feelings about games by presenting a reductive caricature of them.

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Memu

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@jumbs said:

@memu said:

I am a big fan of Patrick and I am also a big fan of fan service in anime. I love High School of the Dead for example. This stuff in Danganronpa that Patrick takes offense at didn't even register with me.

I also think many guys pretend they are offended because that seems "right", but secretly enjoy the animated panty shot or breast jiggle. Or they are afraid to be labeled as otaku or pervert by their friends/peers.

If I were the type to take offense at anything I would take more offense at some of the things I have heard said on the bombcast than at any "inappropriate" camera angle in a cartoon. Holier-than-thou just doesn't cut it with me.

Who said anything about offense? You can find something gross, needless and inappropriate without being offended, champ

You sound pretty offended, bub. I must have hit a nerve. My statement is a general one about going along with the social norm. And I think it is accurate. Getting pedantic does not refute what I said. Change "offended" to "didn't like" if that bothers you.

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InfiniteGeass

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As a lonely forever alone otaku, I enjoy fanservice scenes in games and hope that Japan never stops having them. Also Chiaki is best girl, both in terms of personality and body.

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I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

That's a myopic view. If you choose to ignore the political and social implications of subjugating anyone under the auspices of sex, that's on you. But it's ignorance. It's not a like vs. not like thing. It's a thinking vs. not thinking thing. There is no good that comes of sexual exploitation. It can be used ironically, it can be satirized, but if the point of a satire is "Man, this shit's creepy," then that is a rather unimportant and obvious satire. Stop fighting for this.

------------

All of you. Stop fighting for this. Spend your time elsewhere and let us approach the scourge together rather than battling over whether it's a scourge at all. You are fighting a losing battle for a stupid, bad thing. Stop it.

Inclusiveness, respect, diversity--none of these bar humor or fun or engagement. They make it stronger. Why are you trying to kill the genre of art you love? Stop hurting video games.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@brodehouse: Hey, have you ever heard of this talk radio host named Rush Limbaugh? He's this old dude who makes really smug, reductive pronouncements about everyone who doesn't share his opinions. You might really enjoy his show if you give it a chance.

How old are you, seriously? Do you seriously think that implying someone is a conservative is anything other than an ad hominem?

Pretty sure he is making fun of people's different concerns and feelings about games by presenting a reductive caricature of them.

I'm not making fun, I'm reaching the logical conclusion of the statement I quoted. Is my statement not found within the body of text I quoted? Am I misrepresenting the statement? I submit that I am not.

If the conclusion makes you feel uncomfortable or doesn't seem right, most would reconsider the validity of the statement.

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TruthTellah

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@brodehouse: It is definitely a misrepresentation of his and others' concerns, and it's one you have erroneously presented before. If you have a point and actually want to talk about it, perhaps talk about it instead of just smugly mocking Patrick and people who may feel differently than you do.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@brodehouse said:

I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

That's a myopic view. If you choose to ignore the political and social implications of subjugating anyone under the auspices of sex, that's on you.

Sub... subjugating..? Someone was subjugated? Women were subjugated because of this game?

But it's ignorance. It's not a like vs. not like thing. It's a thinking vs. not thinking thing.

Ahhh. It's not about like vs. not like, it's about agree with our norms or you are not thinking.

I wonder if you would take Muslim norms about how women should be represented as being as valid as your specific norms about how women should be represented? When I read people talking about how female characters should be dressed in order to not exploit all women everywhere, I generally expect it to come from the Christian Science Monitor.

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musubi

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@demoskinos: I think the heart of what you're saying is true, and I agree with all of my heart. However, I think a lot of the acceptance of sex vs. violence thing depends on context. There is so much room in video games to properly explore sexuality. Games with well-executed sexual content should be embraced and celebrated. But there is a way you can criticize the sexualization of a single character in a game (or other forms of media, for that matter) without disagreeing with sexual content as a whole, as I imagine Patrick is doing. (Obviously, I don't know that for sure. I just don't see Patrick as the type of person to condemn all sex in games. It is understandable for him to criticize instances where sex in games can be seen as objectifying or poorly done, though.)

Exploitative angles and jokes do not serve any purpose except maybe fanservice - for example, to titillate the straight dudes who are playing the game.

See, that is another thing I don't understand why people have to always take stuff of this nature as titillating. Lets go back to the violence thing. Violence can often be used as a mechanism in comedy. I think its equally safe to say then that sex can be used in the same manner ie not taking it seriously. Which is the manner to which I think Danganropa uses it in. And its not like I just outright excuse this stuff either. I bought Monster Monpiece earlier this year and man is the story in that game and the justifications for everything in that game just bad. However, I think stuff like Danganronpa had at least some thought put into the context of it.

I honestly, also think it comes down to the fact that its a video game. I mean, lets analyze all of the needless pandering sex on the myriad of HBO and Showtime shows. The only reason this isn't maligned is because for whatever reason many of these shows have permeated the consciousness of the masses and its generally accepted to be a Game of Thrones or Masters of Sex fan. The reactions to stuff in Danganronpa I think come from the social context of "Oh shit, people are going to think I'm weird" If you were to take the general premise of Danganronpa adapt it into a westernized style and leave many of the character tropes of the girls busting out of their shirts ect intact I honestly think it would be accepted on a wider level. Its why 50 shades of grey is so popular. Its a bunch of housewives who really want to be into smut but don't want to be judged for it but since 50 shades of Grey is such a widely accepted "thing" they feel like they aren't being judged as much.

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DevourerOfTime

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@xchairmandrekx said:

@brodehouse said:

I agree with you 100% on the over-the-top-violence in general. When you boil it down, the reason why is very similar: it's a unnecessary aspect of the game that are only there to sell copies to those who find that content appealing, but, ultimately, are alienating factors for others. Not everyone wants to see that level of ultra-violence in their games and, even if they would love the gameplay, story, etc. aspects of the game, it might turn a whole bunch of people away from it. Does it make the game a horrible mess that people should be shunned for buying? No. It just makes the game a lesser product for the people it's not pandering to.

If one group finds something appealing, but another group finds it alienating, then that game is a lesser product for having something that one group doesn't like.

I disagree with this point on so many levels. Any piece of media, story or what have you, by no means needs to appeal to everybody, and is certainly not a lesser product for not doing so.

Homework assignment: Read my post a few more times.

Did you do it? Because then you'd realize that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying sexual content = bad and violence = bad so no games should have them ever because boo-hoo-ba-hoo *slams fists on floor in temper tantrum*.

What I'm saying is that, when you add in certain pieces of content into the mix, such as the fanservice moments or the ultra violence blood splatter decapitations whatever, that are unnecessary (such that the game would function identically without them), that they ultimately do more harm than good for an experience. Sure, there are people who buy games for the ultraviolence and the panty shots and if the product is built around that aspect, then go for it. Keep the ultraviolence in Mortal Kombat and the outrageous sexuality in Bayonetta. But if it's a game with a ton of appealing aspects other than that one, minute detail, there's very little reason to include it.

And, as a designer, it continuously confuses the hell out of me why you would include that aspect when it was unnecessary in the first place (other than the "we need this thing to sell and this is a way we've guaranteed it sell in the past" aspect), when all it serves is to pander to a few who would enjoy the game anyways and isolate others who would enjoy everything else. You made millions of decisions to make your game appealing and then decided, "hey, you know what? This character we made extremely interesting for x, y, and z ways? Yeah, let's show her panties in chapter 7 to sell more to the pervert crowd despite it not fitting with the rest of our game."

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@brodehouse: It is definitely a misrepresentation of his and others' concerns, and it's one you have erroneously presented before. If you have a point and actually want to talk about it, perhaps talk about it instead of just smugly mocking Patrick and people who may feel differently than you do.

Once again, you're presuming things about me and making accusations of smugness and mocking. The last time you accused me of 'making fun'. In neither time did you actually address why what I said was a misrepresentation. How exactly was my statement a misrepresentation? I do have a point, but you've avoided broaching it in favor of criticizing perceived tone.

How was my statement a misrepresentation of the body of text I took them from?

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Edited By venfayth

Good review Patrick. I didn't mind the fanservice, though. It was annoying when it popped up but didn't really detract from anything, I just kinda shook my head.

I really wish Zero Escape WOULD be getting its third game though.

Zero Escape spoilers below

It's really unfortunate that it's not going to happen because the worst part about the second game was that it's setting you up for the third game.

I'd also say that where Danganronpa 2 completely exhausts the desirability of a third game, Zero Escape 2 sets the stage for a third game perfectly.

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@chrissedoff said:

@brodehouse: Hey, have you ever heard of this talk radio host named Rush Limbaugh? He's this old dude who makes really smug, reductive pronouncements about everyone who doesn't share his opinions. You might really enjoy his show if you give it a chance.

How old are you, seriously? Do you seriously think that implying someone is a conservative is anything other than an ad hominem?

No, no, I'm just saying you'd appreciate his style. You might also find that you're simpatico on the degree to which you understand the concept of irony.

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What I'm saying is that, when you add in certain pieces of content into the mix, such as the fanservice moments or the ultra violence blood splatter decapitations whatever, that are unnecessary (such that the game would function identically without them), that they ultimately do more harm than good for an experience. Sure, there are people who buy games for the ultraviolence and the panty shots and if the product is built around that aspect, then go for it. Keep the ultraviolence in Mortal Kombat and the outrageous sexuality in Bayonetta. But if it's a game with a ton of appealing aspects other than that one, minute detail, there's very little reason to include it.

And, as a designer, it continuously confuses the hell out of me why you would include that aspect when it was unnecessary in the first place, when all it serves is to pander to a few who would enjoy the game anyways and isolate others who would enjoy everything else.

If a game has tons of appealing aspects other than ultraviolence, then it should not have ultraviolence.

Does Mortal Kombat not have tons of appealing aspects other than ultraviolence? If it does, they should take the ultraviolence out of Mortal Kombat.

If they take out the ultraviolence, will it be less appealing to the people who like Mortal Kombat? If it does, then ... what? I thought it was negative to make games less appealing to people?

Why does having 'many appealing elements' mean that you should get rid of other elements?

I bet there are a lot of people who would enjoy Seth Rogen movies if he just eased off the pot jokes, because they don't approve of drug abuse. While Seth Rogen's jokes about drug abuse make stoners laugh, it pushes away families. I bet stoners would like Seth Rogen even if he didn't make pot jokes, so Seth Rogen should stop making pot jokes so he can appeal to families. I don't know why he would include something that isn't necessary.

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@brodehouse said:

@chrissedoff said:

@brodehouse: Hey, have you ever heard of this talk radio host named Rush Limbaugh? He's this old dude who makes really smug, reductive pronouncements about everyone who doesn't share his opinions. You might really enjoy his show if you give it a chance.

How old are you, seriously? Do you seriously think that implying someone is a conservative is anything other than an ad hominem?

No, no, I'm just saying you'd appreciate his style. You might also find that you're simpatico on the degree to which you understand the concept of irony.

Your cunning insults have reduced me to flinders.

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@rusalkagirl said:

@demoskinos: I think the heart of what you're saying is true, and I agree with all of my heart. However, I think a lot of the acceptance of sex vs. violence thing depends on context. There is so much room in video games to properly explore sexuality. Games with well-executed sexual content should be embraced and celebrated. But there is a way you can criticize the sexualization of a single character in a game (or other forms of media, for that matter) without disagreeing with sexual content as a whole, as I imagine Patrick is doing. (Obviously, I don't know that for sure. I just don't see Patrick as the type of person to condemn all sex in games. It is understandable for him to criticize instances where sex in games can be seen as objectifying or poorly done, though.)

Exploitative angles and jokes do not serve any purpose except maybe fanservice - for example, to titillate the straight dudes who are playing the game.

See, that is another thing I don't understand why people have to always take stuff of this nature as titillating. Lets go back to the violence thing. Violence can often be used as a mechanism in comedy. I think its equally safe to say then that sex can be used in the same manner ie not taking it seriously. Which is the manner to which I think Danganropa uses it in. And its not like I just outright excuse this stuff either. I bought Monster Monpiece earlier this year and man is the story in that game and the justifications for everything in that game just bad. However, I think stuff like Danganronpa had at least some thought put into the context of it.

I honestly, also think it comes down to the fact that its a video game. I mean, lets analyze all of the needless pandering sex on the myriad of HBO and Showtime shows. The only reason this isn't maligned is because for whatever reason many of these shows have permeated the consciousness of the masses and its generally accepted to be a Game of Thrones or Masters of Sex fan. The reactions to stuff in Danganronpa I think come from the social context of "Oh shit, people are going to think I'm weird" If you were to take the general premise of Danganronpa adapt it into a westernized style and leave many of the character tropes of the girls busting out of their shirts ect intact I honestly think it would be accepted on a wider level. Its why 50 shades of grey is so popular. Its a bunch of housewives who really want to be into smut but don't want to be judged for it but since 50 shades of Grey is such a widely accepted "thing" they feel like they aren't being judged as much.

I didn't say it is *always* meant to be titillating, but there are many instances in which it is. And yeah, sex can be used for comedic relief, as can violence, but as I said, it depends on how it is done. That is what is being critiqued - how sex is being portrayed, not that it exists.

If Danganronpa was westernized and still had the same problems (or what can be viewed as problems) regarding sex it has currently, they would still be called out. 50 Shades of Grey is not a good thing either, and it, too, should be critiqued. However, that is not because it is turning on housewives; it is because it is full of abusive bullshit. Sex in the media, all media, has its problems. Just because one problematic thing is "accepted" does not mean that nothing should be criticized and it is all okay.

Like I said before, I agree with the heart of what you're saying. I think it sucks that PG-13 or R films can have dead people and blood everywhere, but if a woman has an orgasm or something, it is considered highly inappropriate. Pain should not be more socially acceptable than pleasure. But exploitation is not really pleasure.

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Man, I'm loving the game so far, but I think the class trials in this game are significantly worse than the first game. It's fine when I know what the game wants me to point out, but there have been a handful of times when I'm completely lost on what to do, and those moments increase as the game goes on. You're supposed to remember very minute details that if you don't play a single chapter in one go, you're more than likely to forget due to their seemingly insignificance.

There's also an escape section of the game very reminiscent of 999 and VLR later on in the game, but it's NO fun at all. The character you're playing as constantly remarks about how easy the puzzle is, but I'm fumbling around like an idiot, feeling even worse since the game is treating me like an idiot for not obviously getting the puzzle right away... Ugh.

And holy CRAP you are right about the fanservice this time around. It's just eye-rolling to see it.

It's still a good game, but a lot of the changes are a miss with me.

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@chrissedoff: aren't you are being smug and making reductive pronouncements of someone who doesn't agree with you?

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@truthtellah said:

@brodehouse: It is definitely a misrepresentation of his and others' concerns, and it's one you have erroneously presented before. If you have a point and actually want to talk about it, perhaps talk about it instead of just smugly mocking Patrick and people who may feel differently than you do.

Once again, you're presuming things about me and making accusations of smugness and mocking. The last time you accused me of 'making fun'. In neither time did you actually address why what I said was a misrepresentation. How exactly was my statement a misrepresentation? I do have a point, but you've avoided broaching it in favor of criticizing perceived tone.

How was my statement a misrepresentation of the body of text I took them from?

Fine. It was a misrepresentation of what he said because that's not what he said. That isn't the argument Patrick or anyone else is making.

It only makes sense if you assume that nothing is right or wrong and there isn't misogyny, racism, or cultural problems in the world. In such a case, there could never be flaws in games or anything else besides technical ones, because nothing would be "wrong", just different. Since that is not the world we live in, the suggestion that expressing an opinion critical of problematic content is somehow untoward is as absurd as a bully chastising someone for pointing out that they are a bully.

This originally came up with the fan service in the reviewed game, and I think it's fair for some people to think and express that such elements can detract from their experience of a game.

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Edited By TruthTellah

@brodehouse: Also, independent of that, the strategy of mockingly presenting a reduction of another commenter's argument as your own comment is certainly being a jerk toward them and others like them. Your disagreement with someone doesn't give you the right to muck up this review's comments section by being rude to other members or bickering with someone like @chrissedoff. If you have an issue with each other, why not take it to a PM instead?

People are trying to talk about Dangan Ronpa 2, a fun, crazy Vita game with a lot of personality. There is plenty to discuss regarding it without resorting to such comments. Let's be cool to one another and just talk about the game and its review.

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@brodehouse: Don't even know where to start on this one, hahaha.

"If a game has tons of appealing aspects other than ultraviolence, then it should not have ultraviolence."

If a game is not leaning on it's ultraviolence to be one of its sole appealing aspects or is not built from the ground up to have the ultraviolence as a core aspect of the game, then perhaps the inclusion of the ultraviolence should be reevaluated, yes. If it adds very little to the game, if you look at your game and think "what does this add to the game in a meaningful way" and can't come up with an answer to it, then maybe you should think of removing it.

For example, if Street Fighter V had the ability to decapitate someone, what, meaningfully, would it add to the game? Why would you include it? Does it speak to the audience who enjoyed the game and are anticipating the new game?

Or if you're Platinum Games and making a new character action games, should you be smacking enemies around or dismembering them? What aspect better highlights what you want to achieve with the game? Is the dismembering necessary?

"Does Mortal Kombat not have tons of appealing aspects other than ultraviolence? If it does, they should take the ultraviolence out of Mortal Kombat.

If they take out the ultraviolence, will it be less appealing to the people who like Mortal Kombat? If it does, then ... what? I thought it was negative to make games less appealing to people?
"

Yeah, I should have worded that sentence a little better. Mortal Kombat has a ton of appealing aspects beyond the fatalities and gore and bone breaking and what not, obviously, but that's also a core identity of the series. That is what made Mortal Kombat what it was when it first came out and what the developers built the game around when they rebooted the franchise with MK9. Removing the ultra violence from the game would be removing part of the soul of the game, as it has become so entwined with the identity of the game.

Could they remove, say, the ridiculous female outfits, increasingly large breast sizes, and jiggle physics from Soul Calibur? Yes. That was never what that game was about and removing that aspect of the game would not hurt the series. (side note: Would Ivy still be a sexual character if that were to happen and I had control over that series? Yes, as that's part of her core identity as a character, even if I don't really enjoy it myself. Characters like Sophitia? Not so much.)

"Why does having 'many appealing elements' mean that you should get rid of other elements?"

Again, didn't word that correctly. I apologize. But yes, you should remove other elements if you have a solid core set of appealing elements in your game. That's what game design is all about. You should focus on your core of your idea, of your design. You should make a game that has every aspect of that experience be in service or, at least, compliment the core of that design. You wouldn't add a farming simulator to Mortal Kombat that is necessary to complete to progress the story. That's a silly and extreme example, but, yes, many elements are cut throughout every game's development because they simply did not serve the core of the game.

In Mortal Kombat, that ultraviolence is essential. In, say, Street Fighter? It is not.

"I bet there are a lot of people who would enjoy Seth Rogen movies if he just eased off the pot jokes, because they don't approve of drug abuse. While Seth Rogen's jokes about drug abuse make stoners laugh, it pushes away families. I bet stoners would like Seth Rogen even if he didn't make pot jokes, so Seth Rogen should stop making pot jokes so he can appeal to families. I don't know why he would include something that isn't necessary."

I bet there would be a lot of people who would enjoy if Seth Rogan made a comedy show devoted to weed and weed humour, if that's what they find appealing. However, I bet if there was a 30-90 second scene in there every episode that earnestly talked about the work of Jesus and to convert to the Roman Catholic church, then there would be a ton of people put off by it.

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@truthtellah: This is the third time you've accused me of mocking. You are laser focused on my tone and in making others believe that I'm mocking when I criticize a statement and thus my opinion is invalid.

It seems that whenever someone you like criticizes someone, it's fair and we should be open to criticism. When someone criticizes something or someone or even a statement, then they're "being a jerk". I know if I insulted anyone like chrissedoff has insulted me, you'd be going to the mods, but that's okay when it's someone you like.

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I don't have a problem with fanservice, but I'm also not really into fanservice myself. I don't really judge any other people or cultures whom enjoy it, though. We sexualize the human body because we're into sex, and we objectify one another one way or another all the time because we're human. That doesn't mean that objectification is okay in every instance, but in the context of a video game, no pixels were egregiously discriminated against or dismissed by being used in a sexually objectifying manner. It's when that behavior manifests itself toward people that there is a problem.

The reviewer's original point was made just fine. Clearly it's his opinion - he wrote it. Remember English 101 - you don't take a stance by saying "In my opinion" or "I feel that" because you weaken the strength of directness of your statement.

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Edited By TruthTellah

@brodehouse: Considering how many folks I enjoy talking to around here with rather different opinions from my own, I'd say you're mistaken. I -am- bothered by someone using the comments section as an opportunity to mockingly argue with other members though. Tone and approach certainly do make a difference. Plenty of people have views similar to your own but know how to still be nice to fellow members regarding their differences.

And I tagged @chrissedoff and said "if you have a problem with each other" you should consider taking it to a PM instead because I don't believe he should be mucking around with you either. Patrick worked hard on this review and it's a cool game. None of this belongs in an otherwise decent discussion of the game.

If you still have a problem with what I or @chrissedoff has said, I hope you may take it to a PM instead. I have no interest in further distracting from the topic of Dangan Ronpa 2.

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@venfayth said:

Good review Patrick. I didn't mind the fanservice, though. It was annoying when it popped up but didn't really detract from anything, I just kinda shook my head.

I really wish Zero Escape WOULD be getting its third game though.

Zero Escape spoilers below

It's really unfortunate that it's not going to happen because the worst part about the second game was that it's setting you up for the third game.

I'd also say that where Danganronpa 2 completely exhausts the desirability of a third game, Zero Escape 2 sets the stage for a third game perfectly.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm not sure how you could make a Danganronpa 3 that dealt with the outside world recovering from despair without fundamentally changing the gameplay in a way that no longer really makes it Danganronpa. I don't know if I really want yet another school killing game, but given that I've played two of these in one year, I might be singing a different tune in 2015/2016.

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As a lonely forever alone otaku, I enjoy fanservice scenes in games and hope that Japan never stops having them. Also Chiaki is best girl, both in terms of personality and body.

A++ comment would read again

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Edited By Pepsiman

I played this and the first game in Japanese originally, not out of any particular feelings towards the existing translations so much as just a personal appreciation for the writing style and whatnot employed in that language. I think with both games, but especially the second, there are definitely a lot of little moments that are meant to hearken back to aspects of Japanese game industry history and a lot of it is so very specific and esoteric to stuff that only took place there during the 80s and 90s that it's admittedly easy for parts of the game to lose their context and authorial voice, especially since the writing almost never actually tries to overtly explain these references. (This isn't to say that even all Japanese players get every last single reference those games are making; the fact that 2 actually explains it one major game reference that's necessary to know for plot progression attests to as much.) The fanservice stuff is, in my mind, definitely at the top of the pile. There is a very specific historical context that 2 especially is making fun of by including the moments that it does and the script makes it very apparent in the original Japanese that the major bits of fanservice are meant to be so over the top that it's supposed to be repugnant, but since a lot of the foundational stuff that the fanservice is referencing (very understandably) never got exported outside Japan nor (again, very understandably) would it have likely ever been received well anyway because of differences in approaches on sexuality and eroticism between Japan and Western countries, I think a reaction like Patrick's is pretty natural.

And that's totally okay in my mind.

Even when I talk about stuff like historical context and whatnot, the thing about translation and localization, as someone who does that sort of work with Japanese, is at some point you just have to accept that differences in cultural backgrounds will result in the audience for translations interpreting some aspects of the work differently than the original Japanese audience. It's hard enough to make things resonate as a writer in the way that they specifically want in their native language and cultural; anything beyond that is just too demanding. The best that I think you can do when localizing is try to massage the script here and there to make those original intentions in situations like DR2's fanservice stand out, since otherwise the base content has been set in stone for too long a time for it to be edited to be more accommodating of international sensibilities, if that's the right call to even make in the first place. Again, it is absolutely okay that overseas players express discomfort and disagree with the perceived core intent of that content, but there are definitely situations where it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of thing in terms of what all can be "done about it" on a localization time.

I've definitely read interviews that have said that Spike Chunsoft never expected either DR game to make it outside Japan, let alone get as relatively popular as they have, and, again, having played them in Japanese, I totally see why they would think that. I still feel they're brilliantly written games, but they totally are meant to be consumed first and foremost by players of a pretty specific background, essentially amounting to a niche subset of Japanese players, not just Japanese players broadly, so it's only natural that people from other backgrounds take to parts of those games differently and that's totally fine. Honestly, I think Spike Chunsoft is looking for that sort of feedback now that they know how well regarded the games generally are overseas so that they can actually work on better accomodating those sensibilities while the next games are still in development, rather than after the fact when localization is decided after the original Japanese is out.

Basically I think Patrick's fine for feeling the way that he does, even if I very respectfully disagree. :)

Oh, speaking of which, @patrickklepek, if you're ever interested in picking Kodaka Kazutaka, the series writer's mind, I know Hiroko at 8-4 is friends with the guy. He seems like a super intelligent guy that's probably aware of criticisms like yours already, but I totally bet you two could have a really interesting conversation about that game's writing that could better inform him about Western sensibilities on some of the things you pointed out. Just a thought. :)

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This is a really good conversation going on in here. This game for me would be like play WoW or WildStar. I wouldn't because I couldn't get past the rote art style. It's just not my bag. The convo going on in here right now is why I love GB.