What Borderlands needs is a real-money auction house. Yeah, that will fix everything, right?

Sure, buy it and take any and all meaning of actually earning it away. The low drop rate is the entire point. Its an item for only dedicated people.

Give me 15 dollars and I'll farm it for you.

If you aren't having fun grinding for hours to get one crappy skin, then why have you been doing it? The point of games is to have fun, and if you are complaining that grinding the boss isn't fun then you should stop doing it. If you think getting the item will be more fun than playing enjoyable parts of the game without it then do it, just don't complain about a game mechanic that you are choosing to do for something purely cosmetic that has no real impact on the gameplay.

OP represents everything that's wrong with gaming.

I agree with OP, to an extent. On the one hand, it is a miracle of modern game design that such a system doesn't exist. That kind of thing is just ingrained in the system now.

More to the point though: in games with loot drop chances, at least in the case of cosmetic stuff like this, a player should get cumulative probability. Maybe it hits on the first one, but the odds should increase at a decent pace. This type of logic doesn't apply to amazing / legendary type stuff; that by its own definition needs to stay rare or it loses the point.

In the end I agree with you why not put microtransactions in there for most stuff, maybe you keep the very top level items off the list. Personally I am not one to pay for an outfit or one gun but spending $1 is better than farming for 4 hours for an outfit. I still play B2 now and than and just spend my time randomly killing and collecting stuff, I can't spent hours farming the same thing over and over again drives me crazy. What's the worst thing that can happen with microtransactions you ruin your own game play experience by giving yourself all the best stuff and walking through the game. If that's what you want go for it. Maybe gearbox can use some of that extra money for more content.

By the way I'm kindof pissed that I buy a season pass day one for DLC and than they release another dude, but he's not in my season pass. How come you are working on DLC that is not in my season pass, while at he same time my season pass isn't over.

The farming and drop rates for various items in Borderlands are a bit extreme yea, at some point they surpass MMO standards and require way too much time investment for what is really either just cosmetic or just 1 more gun to play in a game with pretty finite content, at least in an mmo the whole idea is to re-play content over and over with "friends" until new content arrives. At one point usually after I complete the majority of the games content and it's main story I just give myself all the outfits, it's super easy to do. Usually the easiest way is to download a save that has them in it's inventory then you just load that save and use them all in 1 go and then delete the save to clean things up... bam you have all the outfits for all the characters now. Most of them are kinda lame anyways since you're really only going to be into a select few, there's like 40 teal+lighter blue ones for example that I wish I could remove from the list since there is such a huge list of them already.

Sometimes I wish the loot was more distinctive and meaningful and that there was more standard loot that was viable at the top end, it seems that 'development' shotgun that shoots shots out then in various directions when it gets at range is the top one, or was... and it doesn't at all feel as satisfying to shoot as I'd like... most of the guns don't feel very satisfying honestly. Most of the gun quirks are more harmful than their benefits, like the tedore one where they get thrown on a reload... I've never found that useful or never found that it feels cool to use.

I'd say I'm pretty dedicated when I've been farming for six hours. It's just not reasonable. Borderlands 2 has the drop rates of a game with microtransactions, just without the microtransactions. It's fucking stupid.

You would really pay real money for that outfit that you would rarely ever see?

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you how to do things, but I guess developers were right about micro transactions like cheats and unlock-able items. People are really willing to pay for them.

Yup, I have no shortage of funds for the time being. I think microtransactions for purely cosmetic items is totally fine, and I'm baffled as to why Gearbox left it out.

I've never played borderlands but personally I think there are more pressing issues in borderlands than this, like boring combat, bad humor, and the horribly bland environments.

Because a lot of people hate that kind of F2P shit in their full priced game. And any time there is something like that there is an uproar. For a loot based game, selling dropable loot (even if cosmetic) via microtransactions would be considered an even worse sin by the dedicated gaming crowd. Who are the exact demographic of this kind of game.

Nothing baffling about it.

(it would also require Gearbox to first make their game much more secure vs. modding/tweaking/hacking (no small task), which has not been their policy in either Borderlands game, as players are mostly given free reign to do what they want, and people like that)

You're a bit late to the party bud; also farming is intrinsic to Diablo clones.

@fredchuckdave: I would agree in principle if it wasn't a purely cosmetic item we're talking about in this thread. Diablo III has farming as pretty much the entire point of it, for better or worse, but you get actual usable items that can increase your stats, DPS, etc. There are no purely cosmetic items in Diablo III. I like getting new items that make my character look cool, but I won't sacrifice DPS or HP for a better looking helmet.

Also, looking at Diablo III, I farmed one specific dungeon for about the same amount of time (maybe less actually) as the OP did to get a boss to appear. But this was to get an item to create the staff that would open Whimseyshire and that's not just an item you're looking at, but the ability to enter a whole new area and see new content. This is farming in a good way, in my opinion, and gave me something fun and tangible for my time spent. Yeah it was annoying to have to reload the same cave over and over, but the prize at the end was worth my time.

Now for a cosmetic item, I don't see a problem with microtransactions. Maybe I am getting older and feel my time is worth more, but I just can't see the problem with spending a dollar or two to get a costume if that's really all you want. I have been very lucky with Borderlands 2 in that I have gotten skins or heads that I have wanted on the first try or only after minimal grinding. I also am married and my husband played the game as well so if I got a good Commando drop, I would have him load up his game so I could give it to him, and he would do the same with Siren stuff.

The best solution would of course be better drops rates. I don't think anyone would argue with that. However, putting purely cosmetic skins and heads on a marketplace wouldn't be horrible either. The people farming them could stay pure and unsullied, while people that only want their 1 skin can get it and stop getting frustrated over hours and hours of time they feel has been wasted with no tangible rewards.

On a final note, I would say weapons and shields and anything that actually helps you "win" should stay as loot drops. Again, going back to a game like Diablo III, I play that game to get better gear and I have never purchased something from the gold or RM auction house and I don't see the point in that. That is actually paying for an achievement. A skin that makes a character look different and has no bearing on actual gameplay? That's not an achievement and has no bearing on actual gameplay so I get the desire to just say that time is money and some people value their time over a couple of bucks.

Microtransactions for skins and heads would probably make the drop-rates feel super dirty. I'd definitely prefer the drop-rates on this stuff to be better, but I'm just not fond of farming in general.

Love Borderlands 2, though, I think the game is fantastic and have poured loads of time into it (without having even spent much time farming, since I just find that portion of the game unenjoyable). I've been playing a whole load of it these past couple of weeks thanks to the Krieg DLC, I've had loads of fun playing through the game twice over with that character. I just love the way Borderlands 2 plays, ultimately, I'm not very drawn by the loot-game (though I like that it's there) it's the actual playing of the game, levelling and completing quests that I enjoy.

So because gamers are whiners, Gearbox can't sell cosmetic items? Makes sense.

Haha, so obsessed over a cosmetic item that you want to pay real money for it? Can we please just keep micro-transactions out of full price games.

Whether or not you agree with the reasons is irrelevant. They simply are.

Likewise other people would consider what you are doing here whining just as much. Your whining is not more important or valid then anyone elses whining. Gearbox simply listened to the "whining" of the people who made them their money. It's a simple principle - satisfying their customers.

When more people ask them to include microtransactions rather then simply increase the drop rate i'm sure they'll take that into consideration. They're quite good at that, listening to fan feedback i mean.

@tennmuerti: It's not irrelevant, far from it. You say Gearbox listen to the people who made them their money? Well, I've bought every game from Gearbox since Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30 (excluding Aliens), and they're not listening to me.

No, they're not good at listening to feedback. If they were, they would already have done something about the drop rates, because people are complaining about them all over the internet.

Is it really that unreasonable to pay one dollar for a cosmetic item, instead of farming it for more than six hours? Gamers are so conservative, and don't ever welcome change.

It is irrelevant to the existence of the reason itself. You may disagree with the reasons, but that does not change the fact that those reasons it are there. All you have is your opinion. Just like a lot of people have theirs. You thinking that another people opinions is "whining" does not make their reasons/wants/opinions any less valid. Thus your dismissal of them as whining is irrelevant.

Your want for microtransactions is relevant, never said it wasn't.

They are not listening to you because what you want is the incredible minority. Most people don't want what you want. (and should have been posted in official forums in the first place). That's what is meant by people who made them their money, the bulk of those who bought BL1&2.

No, they're not good at listening to feedback. If they were, they would already have done something about the drop rates, because people are complaining about them all over the internet.

Listening to feedback well =/= doing 100% of everything people ask for. They have implemented a vast multitude of changes people have requested from 1 to 2 as well as over the course of the content DLCs. It's simply their decision to keep the rates as they are. And while we are on the subject they actually did increase the player ability to get better/faster loot for playthrough 3.

Is it really that unreasonable to pay one dollar for a cosmetic item, instead of farming it for more than six hours? Gamers are so conservative, and don't ever welcome change.

By itself it's not unreasonable at all. It's all that microtransactions imply and affect when they're introduced.

Also Don't farm it (a skin you almost never see) for six hours? That seems crazy. There are far easier ways to get it and you wouldn't even have to pay anything.

The only microtransaction I'd pay for regularly in Borderlands 2 would be the ability to reset kill counts, chests opened, loot sold, etc. Badass ranks are awesome, but it's getting ridiculously hard for me to obtain them and it'd be cool to be able to "prestige" those requirements back to zero without losing the ranks themselves.

And? Plenty of games were like this way way before microtransactions were ever even a thing. Besides, the thing you're after is a vanity item in a game where your playing in first person for like 95% of the time minus the times you go into 3rd person for vehicle sequences. So I don't see how you can complain about an item that is entirely a optional thing that shouldn't affect your ability to progress in the slightest.

@legion_: It's a Vanity Item, so if you're gonna show off with it why not have the bragging rights of how long it took to find it? A lot of games have incredibly hard items that exist soley for bragging rights that doesn't make a game bad plus micro transactions would take away the bragging rights too so like other have saids it would alienate a big portion of players.

A cosmetic item you can't show to anyone else except those in the same game. There are other problems beyond the rarity that need to be addressed before the OP is "happy".

@legion_: 6 hours is nothing, lol. I've spent more time farming gold in MMOs than you have playing Borderlands 2 total.

Rat thieves. How are they a poor design choice? Why not just kill them and take it back? So far your complaint about this game is not valid. This is the same crap you see in MMO's and you dont see them selling everything to people just because the drop rate it low. Thats the point of a drop rate, otherwise they would just have everything for sale.

Picture this. I was fighting for my life in a really hairy situation. I barely survived, but afterwards I was missing 20.000$. I had no idea how or why. At this point, I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as Rat Thieves. I thought it was a bug, so I ended up quiting my game, and the money was lost forever.

When the developers don't even mention that there is a enemy that steals large sums of your money in the middle of battle, and you barely get notified when they do, then that's a poor design choice. As for the drop rates, read the thread and maybe you'll understand why there should be microtransactions for cosmetic items.

....none of that makes any sense because microtransactions doesn't solve your issue.

Hey guys, don't make the same mistake the rest of us did. By that of course I mean don't feed the troll.

Have a wonderful day.

I didn't know Rat Thieves stole your money when I first played either, but it becomes pretty obvious when you actually kill one of them. They have "Rat" in their name and when you kill them they spew out a ton of money. After looking at your money counter and noticing it's not going up a ton, I think it's common sense that you are getting back what they took from you. I don't think they are a poor design choice, Borderlands gameplay is all about killing anything that moves, and you didn't, so you got jacked dude. And $20,000 isn't even all that much in the long run. You'll make that back before you know it.

And now that I think about it, if I were Gearbox I would rather have you grind 6 hours to get a piece of loot instead of just selling it to you for that instant gratification, getting bored now that you have nothing to work for, then selling the game. I can totally see why you would want microtransactions in this game, but I can also see why the developer would want to keep them out.

That's the thing though, they don't spew out a ton of money. All the money they stole stacks, so it is (as far as I can tell) visibly no different to a stack of 20$ for instance. It's just really weird. But yes, I've made that money back tenfold by now, but at the time it was pretty annoying.

The money they spew out is a different color.

I'm not an expert on Borderlands 2 or know everything about it but it was pretty clear the Rat Thieves could steal money from me and I wasn't even paying that much attention.

Beyond that, it isn't like money is hard to find nor is money that important.

So the solution to bad game design in a $60/£40 game is to pay extra for them to fix it? No wonder game publishers think all gamers are mugs.

That has to be very slight? And still, with all the colors popping from enemies when they die, it can be easy to miss, because it's still just one normal sized stack.

Elaborate. I'm a troll because I have a different opinion than most of you conservative gamers?

Its a different color. Also if your this worked over the drop rates and stuff maybe you should not play loot driven games at all.

@the_laughing_man said:

Yeah, or Gearbox should just have reasonable drop rates in their games.

This is clearly not a game for you. Also you ever played a MMO? Drop rates are supposed to be bad for good stuff. And again your obsessing over a SKIN. Just a skin.

Exacty, it's a skin. The drop rate shouldn't be this bad for a skin.

It is nice to want things....

Are we talking about black clothing or an actual black character? As in the only way to play as a black soldier is to grind upwards of six hours?

'cause if it's that latter option, and they're comfortable turning the character another skin color anyways but only behind a ridiculous unlock wall, that's extremely disappointing in its own right.

If it's the former and it's just an all-black outfit, I'm torn between saying they should've just made that customization pretty accessible because it'd be a pretty common desire or saying that it's kind of cool that it's such a rare item. Then again, I found Crissaegrim in roughly 20 minutes in my first SOTN playthrough, so.

As for microtransactions, I'd call them silly and totally fine in regards to clothing and mildly offensive in terms of a character's actual skin color.

I'm not sure what bothers me more - that you're willing to grind for drops in a game that's not an MMO and has basically no competitive component (except for racing people to pick up loot) or that what you're grinding for a skin and you can't even see it except when boarding vehicles, because it's a first person shooter.

You created a thread titled "Borderlands 2 sucks, and microtransactions could save it", an obviously inflammatory title created to bring in views. The reason you think that Borderlands 2 sucks, according to the OP, is that you have by trying to get a rare drop and haven't gotten it yet. Because you have been unlucky the game sucks and you think you should be able to just buy it. The point of a rare drop is that it is rare, and that people who get it are either "lucky" or they try again over and over until they get it. You are lazy, so because you haven't gotten what you want yet you just want to buy it. Making the item purchaseable downgrades it from being a rare drop into being pretty much nothing. There are only 2 ways to make a drop "rare", and that is to either make it have a very small drop chance, or to make it incredibly difficult to get (such as making it a 100% drop on a boss that you have to go through a lot of arena missions to get to). If you're too lazy to grind the enemy that has the drop to get the item then that means you don't deserve the item, and that's why you don't have it.

You're also a troll because of your recent "gamers are sociopaths" thread where you insulted anyone who disagreed with you and ignored most posts that were well thought out. But, in your words from that thread, "we can't all be winners".

The point is that a character skin shouldn't be the most rare drop in the game. As far as I know, it is, with it's 0,9% drop chance. And I'm lazy because I only farmed it for six hours? Okay duder. And that other thread you're talking about, the one where the best argument was that "people sympathize with the bandits", yeah, I wouldn't call that a well thought out argument.

It's black clothing. If it literally was a skin color, that would be crazy racist. Anywho, I don't get why they make a normal black outfit the most rare drop in the game. Seems silly.