Video game piracy is not entirely evil

@Kidavenger:

Ok. Well the point that most PC games are on consoles now anyway still holds. If any game doesn't work on your machine, there's like 5 other places to get it nowadays, so nobody's ever forced to pirate anything.

I just got Saints Row 3 on OnLive for £20, I'm not even joking.

@I_smell said:

@Kidavenger:

Ok. Well the point that most PC games are on consoles now anyway still holds. If any game doesn't work on your machine, there's like 5 other places to get it nowadays, so nobody's ever forced to pirate anything.

I just got Saints Row 3 on OnLive for £20, I'm not even joking.

How does it run? I'd love for OnLive to become more mainstream but I keep hearing about terrible latency-related lag for most of the games on their service.

@Kidavenger said:

@Mordukai said:

I think his user name should give you a very good indication that, YES! He's very serious. @Kidavenger QL are great and all but they give very little information about how you would react to actually playing the game. It's like saying that reading about sword fighting technics makes you a proficient in sword fighting.

If we've come to the part of this thread where we start making stupid analogies, I think it's time I go steal a Corvette just to see how it handles, I promise to bring it back and buy one if I like it!

So now you realize how dumb you're QL comment was or do you need more stupid analogies?

On a personal note, I much rather steal DRAG-U-LA.

Well, yes, actually. If your alternative is to steal the game, then yes, I think that's a viable solution - because ANY solution would be better than stealing it. 

 I think you reject the suggestion on principle because you are a bit of a PC fanboy ;)

@Kidavenger said:

@Mordukai said:

I think his user name should give you a very good indication that, YES! He's very serious. @Kidavenger QL are great and all but they give very little information about how you would react to actually playing the game. It's like saying that reading about sword fighting technics makes you a proficient in sword fighting.

If we've come to the part of this thread where we start making stupid analogies, I think it's time I go steal a Corvette just to see how it handles, I promise to bring it back and buy one if I like it!

LOL! I don't know how old you are but, you do know you can actually go to a showroom and test-drive a car? You know, try before you buy.

I wonder if the people being all moral in here get all up in arms when companies fuck them in the ass by releasing broken games, don't support them properly, embargo reviews till after release, put pressure on publications to 'deal' with negative reviewers etc.

As someone who generally buys his games, I must object to equating piracy with theft. Theft implies that there's a physical item that must be replaced, usually by purchasing another. Piracy is better called copying, as in copy-right laws. Specifically, you're copying the data, a sophisticated arrangement of switches on your hard-drive, and the programming, the directions to be enacted on those switches. The only thing that can be considered stolen is potential profits, which is a field I'm unfit to discuss.

@AhmadMetallic said:

Some people maybe be new to gaming. Some of them might have played the same genres for years, and this is their first time trying a new game. Some of them may not be able to afford spending big cash on a game and then not playing it after they grow to dislike it, upon trying it.

Why do you think sites like Giant Bomb exist? It's not to tell you if you should download a game illegally or not, it's to tell you whether you should buy it or not.

@Ravenlight:

I literally don't notice anything wrong with it. I jumped on a couple months ago when they were giving away games for £1.

BUT-- Saying that, I am not a PC guy, I don't know what a graphics card LOOKS like, I don't know what "screen-tearing" is, so I'm sure other people on this forum can see a million things wrong with it that I can't.

That's why I like the service though, I don't have to know what any of that stuff is.

That was a really great read and I tend to crack my games that iv'e bought because I just don't want to swap the game disk out every time I want to play it.

@mfpantst said:

@AhmadMetallic: Nothing to say on the xbox. I think the point you and xbots (or whatever people who are huge xbox fanboys are called these days) miss is that some games will play fine on a console or a pc, and some games won't. Some games are 'pc' games, some games are 'whatever the hell works best' games and pc does not always = 'whatever the hell works best.' However, yes, owning the files for any period of time without paying for it is stealing. You wouldn't go into a grocery store, open a soda, taste it, and buy it on the taste. You would buy it, taste it, then decide to buy it again or not. The former is stealing, the latter is not. Now I know your counterpoint- open the soda in store, drink it, buy it. However if you don't like the soda, you don't get to not buy it. You still have to buy it, otherwise it's stealing. That you give yourself a choice is what makes it stealing.

Thats all well and good, except for the fact that videogames are not consumables so your example is retarded. Also, you can buy a game, play it and return it if you are not happy, same result all in all. The OP is just saving himself some legwork, from an economic standpoint he is being a smart consumer by eliminating shoe-leather costs (legality aside, I'm not saying you should pirate, I don't want some condescending dumbass to reply with some holier than thou comment).

@AhmadMetallic: "How many of you have your Dead Island copies laying on the shelf, drenched in regret? Exactly."

Ahem... mine is in active use as we speak, for the second playthrough, good sir. (Brad was right... analog fighting is the way to go)

:P

@I_smell:

If you aren't noticing anything wrong then they've likely improved their service and I'll probably check it out again.

The specific problem I was referring to was a noticeable input delay. IE: You push the jump button and it takes a half second for it to register ingame. A half second might not seem like a lot but it's super-noticeable when you expect 1:1 control of the onscreen action.

lol say "I am not condoning, encouraging or instructing people to pirate here. I'm sharing my point of view on it." and then write a short paper outlining 4 situations where it's OK and sometimes even better to pirate a game. Disclaimer's don't work like that duder.

Piracy is piracy. People need to stop trying to soften it up to somehow being acceptable or even preferable with their lists of when it's OK to pirate and sharing examples of when piracy resulted in becoming an idiot shopper (which is somehow a good thing) or resulted in saving a few bucks.

@mfpantst said:

@GunslingerPanda: See I really have a problem with your simple argument. If you walked into a movie theater to see, say, Battlefield Earth, back when it came out (and if you had paid for the ticket) you wouldn't have walked out and demanded your money back. You would have been mad you watched the film. You would have yelled at your friend who drug you to the movie (or went home and hurt yourself because it was your idea). But you would have paid for it, and your experience would have been shit. Economics in society works primarily on purchasing things you think you want, and customer service exists to help you with when that goes wrong. Piracy is shortcutting that system, even when used in the manner you described.

Right, we're able to take a shitty situation and make it less shitty for ourselves. I don't see this as a bad thing at all; we're able to not spend money on shit.

Also I totally got a refund when I went to see Transformers 2.

I don't believe for one second that you're going to buy Skyrim after pirating it weeks ago and already putting 50+ hours into it.

I don't believe for one second that you're going to buy Skyrim after pirating it weeks ago and already putting 50+ hours into it.

Two of your reasons are still just straight-up wrong. If you want to try a game and there's no proper way to do so, you email the developer and ask them to build a demo. I actually did this with Cargo! The Quest for Gravity, and two weeks later a demo was added to the game. I don't believe I was the only one who sent in an email asking for a demo, but a number of voices is enough to make that possible. Again, stealing a game to find out if you like it is completely backwards.

And your "temporary solutions"... what if you pirated Skyrim and found out you didn't like the game? Would you stil buy it when the year ended, or would you just say "Nah, I'm done?" Most of the time, you'll probably go with the latter, which means you stole a game and decided you didn't really care for it. If you pirated Too Human or Mindjack because you were really excited for them before launch, there's no way you'd buy those games at full price by year's end. And if you buy a game during a sale that you pirated when it was full price, that's absolutely theft and nothing else.

As for ease of use...I have a hard time arguing that the pirates aren't offering better service than some of the developers out there. However, the proper solution is to not play the games that implement DRM and moving files poorly, not to pirate them. Otherwise, you're just proving them right in the long run, and they'll stop making PC versions altogether. DRM doesn't work, but we'll never prove that to PC publishers by stealing their games.

There is only one reason I will ever accept for "piracy"; the game has not been localized to your region and it would be prohibitively expensive or possibly even illegal to purchase a copy through the proper channels. The one guy on the internet who delves into the piracy issue properly is Jim from Extra Credits.

QUICK EDIT:

@sanchopanza said:

I wonder if the people being all moral in here get all up in arms when companies fuck them in the ass by releasing broken games, don't support them properly, embargo reviews till after release, put pressure on publications to 'deal' with negative reviewers etc.

That's how you get better games, brah. That is what you are supposed to do. If you're asking how many of these people get up in arms and then proceed to buy the next game from that company anyways...well, that's probably a much sadder number. I for one will not be buying games from EA or Capcom next year until they figure some shit out. It's so sad, 'cause EA was AWESOME in 2008, too.

You want to play a game the day it comes out? Save your damn money. Entitled asshole.

@AhmadMetallic said:

@MB said:

I don't believe for one second that you're going to buy Skyrim after pirating it weeks ago and already putting 50+ hours into it.

That a pretty sweet deal, where'd you order that from?

I will conceed to Sweep's argument and say, "I pirate games, I am a cunt". But here in Canada, it's not illegal to DL them. I know that's no excuse, and I try to support games from studios that I like/ deserve it, whenever I have the cash. But if stores had a policy of "take what you want, and pay only if you want to" for any other form of goods, I guarantee the majority of people would take advantage of it, at least sometimes. So yes, I'm a wasteland of moral delinquency. But I also represent most of my society.

I can't talk for other people, but I've pirated games I've had no intention what so ever of buying (regardless of price) and after that ended up buying them for full price. My first Dragon Age playthrough was on a pirated PC copy. I now own 3 copies and spent at least 100 bucks on it, something I never would've done otherwise. The same can be said for several other games for me. I could never play through a pirated game I enjoy without buying it, I would feel bad.

Call it a fucked up sense of right/morality if you want. Me pirating has generated cash for developers/publishers.

People also need to stop seeing the world in black and white. Every pirated copy is not a lost sale. A lot of people wouldn't buy a game just cause they can't get it for free. A large part of pirated copies is just simple "cause it was there"

ALSO

DRM is so fucking stupid. Hey guess what publishers, you're NEVER, EVER going to stop your game from ending up on every torrent site on the net. You're up against UNLIMITED resources. But sure, go ahead and punish your legit customers anyway.

Okay, after reading more of the comments on here. People need to stop with the fucking real life items comparisons. Are you so goddamn ignorant that you don't see your own stupidity when comparing a digital copy that has no production cost / material value?

Let me explain, You can't compare it to opening a box of cereal at a store and eating a couple of fruitloops then putting the box back. The store paid for that box, and it's contents, and it has lost value. A digital copy has no such value. The company is not losing money on your digital copy download unless you you pirate a game that you would've bought if pirating wasn't an option.

The conversations that surround piracy are incredibly stupid. Yes, you took something that is meant to be paid for without paying for it. The difference between piracy and theft is that you can not be caught. If you could illegally download a Ferrari, there would be a lot more people driving Ferraris. People still steal things after thousands of years of people saying it is wrong. Those ads are incredibly stupid. However, do not try to justify your sin as a virtue. You did something wrong be an adult and admit it. You could not pay for entertainment so you took it. Demos also let you know if you can run a game plus there is that part on the box where it tells you what the minimum service requirements are so that is not really a legitimate argument

Now, I only support pirating OLD video games such as Earthbound... not ones like Chrono trigger or FF series however, for a simple fact, if a older than hell game is GARENTEED to NEVER come out for a rerelease and the game carts are being sold used for 200 bucks minimum, I don't blame people for trying to pirate them in order to keep the memories of the game alive since the company that those games belong to no longer are around or it being a completely ignored franchise.

Buy them from the sources if you have the option, if there are no ways to buy it legitly anymore from the source or even buying it from any store nearby, I don't blame people for pirating.

However, for people who pirate games that JUST came out are scum of the earth. IMO.

Make all the excuses you want, you're still stealing from the mouths of the starving children of developers. SHAAAAAAME!

But seriously, your argument is rendered entirely pointless by the invention of the game demo. Download the demo, see how it runs, then buy the game if you like it. Alternatively, try the game at a friend's house. Piracy isn't justifiable.

I was just thinking about your title, and I think a better word to use there would be intrinsically, just a heads up

The whole "try before you buy" argument is invalid. First of all I think you are an exception to the rule. Not having enough money to make a $60 dollar purchase and piriting a game to test it out is frankly bs. There are plenty of sites out there *cough*Giant Bomb*cough* where you can get a feel for a game. If that's not enough then wait until the game drops in price. It's just entitlement to think that you have a right to do this.

You are a very very small minority of people who pirate. While it's good that you actually buy the games you enjoy, not many people share that philosophy.

Thank you for not being another "I'm not a thief because game prices are too high" asshole.

Anyone that says people should use Giantbomb's quicklooks as judgement for whether they'd like a game is an idiot. They cover like 3 PC games a year and the quicklooks are generally them pratting about anyway.

You'd test drive a car right? You'd have a look around a prospective house right? You'd try on clothes in the shop to make sure they fit right? How is this different? Because of some arbitrary moral high horse people seem to feel the need to sit on?

They're should be other options to this yes, demos for example, and then, demos that are actually representative of the final product. But as companies feel the need to make us buy their games blindly this ain't gonna happen.

And for the record, no, I have never pirated a game in my life, but I have wasted a tonne of money on games that people/reviewers/Giantbomb staff have said were amazing.

@AlexW00d said:

Anyone that says people should use Giantbomb's quicklooks as judgement for whether they'd like a game is an idiot. They cover like 3 PC games a year and the quicklooks are generally them pratting about anyway.

You'd test drive a car right? You'd have a look around a prospective house right? You'd try on clothes in the shop to make sure they fit right? How is this different? Because of some arbitrary moral high horse people seem to feel the need to sit on?

They're should be other options to this yes, demos for example, and then, demos that are actually representative of the final product. But as companies feel the need to make us buy their games blindly this ain't gonna happen.

And for the record, no, I have never pirated a game in my life, but I have wasted a tonne of money on games that people/reviewers/Giantbomb staff have said were amazing.

They have quicklooked 6 PC games this month alone...

You may test drive a car, but the salesman is sitting in the seat right next to you giving you a guided experience, same as what the GB crew are doing, sure it's not the same or as good as actually playing the game, but it's the next best thing and if you can't make an informed decision based on that, there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

@Kidavenger said:

You may test drive a car, but the salesman is sitting in the seat right next to you giving you a guided experience, same as what the GB crew are doing, sure it's not the same or as good as actually playing the game, but it's the next best thing and if you can't make an informed decision based on that, there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

Way to contradict yourself.

@Kidavenger said:

@AlexW00d said:

Anyone that says people should use Giantbomb's quicklooks as judgement for whether they'd like a game is an idiot. They cover like 3 PC games a year and the quicklooks are generally them pratting about anyway.

You'd test drive a car right? You'd have a look around a prospective house right? You'd try on clothes in the shop to make sure they fit right? How is this different? Because of some arbitrary moral high horse people seem to feel the need to sit on?

They're should be other options to this yes, demos for example, and then, demos that are actually representative of the final product. But as companies feel the need to make us buy their games blindly this ain't gonna happen.

And for the record, no, I have never pirated a game in my life, but I have wasted a tonne of money on games that people/reviewers/Giantbomb staff have said were amazing.

They have quicklooked 6 PC games this month alone...

You may test drive a car, but the salesman is sitting in the seat right next to you giving you a guided experience, same as what the GB crew are doing, sure it's not the same or as good as actually playing the game, but it's the next best thing and if you can't make an informed decision based on that, there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

No, it is not the same as what GB is doing. An actual comparison would be watching Jeremy Clarkson drive a Ferrari and then basing your decision on that. Same with reviews, yeah, they may tell me what that reviewer liked about a game, but that sure as fuck does not mean I will like the same thing, as you know, opinions and whatnot. This is why you can't tell someone that it's all they need.

The only way anyone can ever know is from experiencing it first hand, like with everything ever. If there was a way to test the game a la test driving a car then that would be fucking incredible. But since no such thing exists, and since not every one has friends in close proximity with whom they share similar opinions, the options are limited.

And if

there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

is really what you have to say, it is clear you're just being an augmentative cunt for the sake of being an argumentative cunt.

@AlexW00d: You mean like a rental?

@c0l0nelp0c0rn1 said:

@AlexW00d: You mean like a rental?

No. Not even slightly. Unless it was free, but then it isn't a rental. Plus you can't rent PC games.

A trial period would work tbh. Software companies do it, so why not videogame companies? Like 30 minutes - a couple of hours to run free with the game, then decision time. Minecraft has a trial period actually. Other developers should take note.

@AlexW00d said:

@Kidavenger said:

@AlexW00d said:

Anyone that says people should use Giantbomb's quicklooks as judgement for whether they'd like a game is an idiot. They cover like 3 PC games a year and the quicklooks are generally them pratting about anyway.

You'd test drive a car right? You'd have a look around a prospective house right? You'd try on clothes in the shop to make sure they fit right? How is this different? Because of some arbitrary moral high horse people seem to feel the need to sit on?

They're should be other options to this yes, demos for example, and then, demos that are actually representative of the final product. But as companies feel the need to make us buy their games blindly this ain't gonna happen.

And for the record, no, I have never pirated a game in my life, but I have wasted a tonne of money on games that people/reviewers/Giantbomb staff have said were amazing.

They have quicklooked 6 PC games this month alone...

You may test drive a car, but the salesman is sitting in the seat right next to you giving you a guided experience, same as what the GB crew are doing, sure it's not the same or as good as actually playing the game, but it's the next best thing and if you can't make an informed decision based on that, there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

No, it is not the same as what GB is doing. An actual comparison would be watching Jeremy Clarkson drive a Ferrari and then basing your decision on that. Same with reviews, yeah, they may tell me what that reviewer liked about a game, but that sure as fuck does not mean I will like the same thing, as you know, opinions and whatnot. This is why you can't tell someone that it's all they need.

The only way anyone can ever know is from experiencing it first hand, like with everything ever. If there was a way to test the game a la test driving a car then that would be fucking incredible. But since no such thing exists, and since not every one has friends in close proximity with whom they share similar opinions, the options are limited.

And if

there isn't much else to say other than it's clear that you are being disingenuous or have major cognitive problems.

is really what you have to say, it is clear you're just being an augmentative cunt for the sake of being an argumentative cunt.

There is a big difference between buying a $100,000+ sports car and a $60 video game, buying a game isn't a big decision their aren't any major problems if you buy a few duds, watching a quicklook should be good enough; if your financial position is so dire that any game purchase has a major impact on you financially, you probably should be looking for a job rather than spending time playing video games.

Coming from someone who agrees with the concept of "pirate to try it," the rationalization of "I want to see how it plays on my PC" is kinda bullshit. Nothing personal to anyone here, but if you cannot comprehend the system requirements description of a given piece of software, you probably shouldn't be PC gaming in the first place.

I looked at it real quick but I didn't see any thing about used videos games. Using piracy general describtion of no money going towards the dev/pub, used games are the same thing. But I think they are even worse because other companies are making massive profts off it.

@sins_of_mosin said:

I looked at it real quick but I didn't see any thing about used videos games. Using piracy general describtion of no money going towards the dev/pub, used games are the same thing. But I think they are even worse because other companies are making massive profts off it.

Uh, so are the people who are trading in their legally purchased pieces of software. But hey, why should consumers have any rights, eh? Shitty analogy is shitty.

@Kidavenger: Or you live in a country that isn't Western European or North American? You clearly can't open your eyes and see how other people might think about something so why are you even bothering debating something?

And, to reiterate, I personally have never pirated a game, nor particularly condone it, but I certainly don't believe it's black or white - as to how evil it is - like you and a lot of other people seem to.

@QuistisTrepe said:

Coming from someone who agrees with the concept of "pirate to try it," the rationalization of "I want to see how it plays on my PC" is kinda bullshit. Nothing personal to anyone here, but if you cannot comprehend the system requirements description of a given piece of software, you probably shouldn't be PC gaming in the first place.

Yeah the system requirements are generally a load of codswallop dude.

I used to make all those same arguments when I was a teenager using Napster. Then I became an adult, made actual money, and realized that I wasn't entitled to play/watch/listen to things that people had poured tens of thousands of hours into unless I paid for them. It sucks not to make enough money to play or try everything you want, but all of your reasons are just terrible self-justifications and excuses for something that is illegal and wrong.

As others have said, we live in a golden age of gaming. You can get for free or for a nominal cost a huge variety of gaming entertainment to last you all year. There are dozens of great historical games that can be bought for next to nothing. New games go on sale extremely quickly and it's easy to find deals to get the most for your gaming buck. The idea that you're entitled to immediately play the remaining games that are a premium price, usually produced at an enormous cost, is just ridiculous. There are hundreds of reviews and opinions to help you make decisions on what to buy. The idea that you can not pay for things and try them out is just ridiculous.

In fact, the sense of selfish entitlement overall is just ridiculous. You're not entitled to try something out if you're not willing to pay for it or download a demo. You're not entitled to get something day one if you don't have the money for it or can't wait for it to drop in price. Generally you're not entitled to play every game out there when you don't have the money to pay for it. Find out what you want to buy in your budget. Or hell, rent it. But don't pretend when you go outside your gaming budget and pirate things that there's some greater good you're accomplishing.

@AlexW00d said:

@Kidavenger: Or you live in a country that isn't Western European or North American? You clearly can't open your eyes and see how other people might think about something so why are you even bothering debating something?

And, to reiterate, I personally have never pirated a game, nor particularly condone it, but I certainly don't believe it's black or white - as to how evil it is - like you and a lot of other people seem to.

@QuistisTrepe said:

Coming from someone who agrees with the concept of "pirate to try it," the rationalization of "I want to see how it plays on my PC" is kinda bullshit. Nothing personal to anyone here, but if you cannot comprehend the system requirements description of a given piece of software, you probably shouldn't be PC gaming in the first place.

Yeah the system requirements are generally a load of codswallop dude.

You are blaming piracy on the economy, that's the most pathetic thing so far in this thread. Boo hoo no job for me so I'm going to sit at home do nothing and steal games; then you're going to buy them right, but only the ones you like, you guys will say anything, pathetic.

Aside from pointing out that this "discussion" really doesn't need to, and probably shouldn't, take place, I'm not bringing anything to the thread other than one thing I find amusing. The OP started playing Skyrim at launch, justified by paying for it when he later on had money. He bought the game for 20$. Did that same store offer the game at that low price at launch? If not, how is that justified?

@Kidavenger: Can you not fucking read? I buy all my fucking games you daft bugger. Hence why my Steam list is 200 games long, with only like 60 played. You're obviously just a shitty troll, of which I am taking the bait, but goddamn you're an idiot.

You'd test drive a car right? You'd have a look around a prospective house right? You'd try on clothes in the shop to make sure they fit right? How is this different? Because of some arbitrary moral high horse people seem to feel the need to sit on?

you know what's fun? watching a dog chase its tail

@captain_max707: Absolutely a good point, but until that system is implemented, not really much else you can do.

I 100% agree with OP.

Demos

Piracy has become the new way to try out games. If publishers refuse to release demos then how am I suppose to know whether the game is good or not ? will it run on my computer ? On the 360 every XBLA game has a trial of some sort, I don't see any legit reason for why publishers can't just throw away a demo into the internet.

Torrents

Someone in this thread said something about torrents "while you are downloading you are also uploading the game to other assholes". The internet has evolved, its not 2001 anymore and if you use torrents to pirate your game then you are doing it wrong.

But Liber, not every pirate will buy the game after he played it

Used game purchases hurt the developers even more than piracy. If someone pirates a game and likes it, there is a chance that he will buy a legit copy and the developers will get their cut, but if someone goes to Gamestop and buys a used copy and finishes the game , he won't come back to Gamestop and buy a new copy of that game, that means all cash goes to Gamestop and none goes to the developer.

@AlexW00d:

Who makes you buy games blindly? Most games have demos. Even games that don't have demos have hundreds of reviews or players' opinions that come out within days of the games release, if not before. This isn't the day when you had a Nintendo Power preview and then hoped the game didn't suck. If you have limited money, get savvy, do your research, and find out what you actually want to buy. Pirating a bunch of games and then buying one - also known as committing several illegal acts, playing games that you didn't pay for, and then maybe buying it if you feel like paying for it - isn't the answer.

People made those games and are entitled to sell or distribute them how they want. It's their property and they put in the money and time to make it. You are never entitled to play them unless you get the game in a legal, approved way. It is black and white. If you don't like the price, the fact that the game doesn't have a demo, the DLC, the DRM, or any of the other myriad complaints that people use to justify pirating, then your option is to complain and/or not buy the game. Your option isn't to pirate something that isn't yours. All the other examples you cited people are giving you permission to try something out. If you don't have permission to test drive a car or try on clothes, then it's called theft. Go ahead and try to test drive a car without the dealer's permission and see what happens. I don't think the police will take "but he wouldn't let me test drive it, and I had to try it before I bought it" as a justification.