So when is a foetus a human?

Oklahoma Democrat Adds 'Every Sperm Is Sacred' Amendment To ...

I caught this first on The Daily Show and thought the Democrat Senator ammendment was real, until doing a bit of reading. Still, it makes for a very interesting topic of life and women's rights. So I throw the question out ........ when is human life or a foetus, a human?

Right off the bat, I am going to come clean and state that I am against abortion.

I am against abortion, for me. Being male, I am unlikely to ever need one. Whatever any woman chooses to do is entirely NOT my business. It isn't anyones business. It certainly isn't the governments business. It absolutely isn't Church business. However, at whay point do we decide that the foetus is a human and has rights?

The Bill in question wants to define it as conception, or as The Daily Show put it as a sperm enters an egg ..... not a person, not a person, not a person, a person. I personally think that is insane. It would make the morning after pill illegal for a start. I am happy to see it defined as a human before birth, assuming it is a completely viable birth - not a vaguely possible birth. Even then, given the right medical circumstances, a woman should still have a right the kill the feotus (I say kill as that is what you are doing, call a spade a spade). If someone attacks a woman and kills the foetus, they can't be charged with murder. I think that there should be a specific law that deals with that, as the impending mother has suffered great loss and the law should reflect that, but it still can't be murder as it is a foetus, not a human - in my veiw.

So what do you think? Is it an attack on Women's Rights? Is it looking after the unborn? Do your religious views or lack thereof colour your outlook? Should a Bill like this ever succeed?

I have no idea, but I never realized it was spelled foetus in other countries.

The more you know I guess.

@Zenaxzd said:

I have no idea, but I never realized it was spelled foetus in other countries.

The more you know I guess.

Yep and we spell other things like encyclopaedia. We are really weird in other parts of the world. I guess we stuck with the old medical spellings.

Conception.

When it's born.

@GunslingerPanda said: Every Sperm Is Sacred

One of the greatest musical clips ever made. Just seeing those kids sing about sperm is wrong in sooooo many ways.

When it could have survived on its own outside of the womb

I don't know enough to answer about the subject to answer the question. I can tell you, however, that I am anti-anti-abortion.

24 weeks according to British law.

Abortion is great, more people should look into it.

It doesn't really matter when a foetus "becomes human" as this is not the reason for abortion law.

I think there's no point in giving something so many rights if its opportunities are limited. It is the case that unwanted children can almost never break out and so their opportunities and life could not be worth living. So if it makes the world a better place then why should we stop it from being so? why force children upon people who don't want them?

However I really don't know if I agree that women should be the only person deciding if the child should be kept... I mean there are cases where the guy wants to keep the kid the woman doesn't... men should have rights over their potential kin too.

And last interesting thing I have to say is that it is incoherent to be pro abortion and not be pro post-birth abortion(also known as infanticide). If someone is interested in why i will find the link, otherwise no point in digging.

I think trying to decide on a point where Foetus becomes human and has rights is totally arbitrary and an exercise in futility. There is no right or wrong answer here, just opinions, and therefore this arbitrarily chosen point where a foetus becomes human shouldn't be the basis of lawmaking.

It should just remain legal so people can make the choices they feel they need to make and leave the individual to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Personally, I think abortion is a fucking sickening concept, and simply think that if you don't want a baby you shouldn't stick your junk in someone elses junk, the same way that you shouldn't drink a shitload of alcohol if you don't want a hangover. Short of instances of rape, there is no excuse aside from a couple's lack of responsibility. Still think it should be legal though, if only because prohibitionism helps nothing.

And no, my religious views do not colour my outlook here. I percieve the omnipresent presence of "God" in everything, but I smoke, drink, swear, watch gory horror films, blah blah. What I'm getting at is that I'm not a crazy puritan, I just happen to find abortion disgusting.

Far greater medical minds than we, have already determined guidelines for when a lump of cells stops being just a lump of cells. Also, I am pro abortion. Abortion should always be an option for women who get pregnant on accident, or because they got raped. Men should also be able to fight for abortion in court if their insane girlfriends lie about being on birth control, or cut holes in condoms. I also, think there should be mandatory abortion for situations where the parents are mentally handicapped, and there's sufficient evidence that the child will turn out to be as well. That might be going too far for some, but I don't really care about political correctness, which is why I will never be a politician.

It’s lunch time in the UK and even though I’m only having fruit the topic about foetuses isn’t helping my appetite. Back to topic, what the Frog said. Also in the UK you can be charged with Child destruction if you kill a foetus (without consent).

when it finds the first flute in mario 3

I can't wait for someone to ask Jeff this question in one of his Jar videos. The way those have been going, it's only a matter of time...

When it's ajar.

@BigDaddy81 said:

I can't wait for someone to ask Jeff this question in one of his Jar videos. The way those have been going, it's only a matter of time...

O.O

...Good idea.

I would see it as when the child's brain has developed to a state where it would be considered conscious. Before that it's basically just a bunch of cells.

When it's born.

I was in a band called Foetus in a Jar... Mmm... Pickling..

Far greater medical minds than we, have already determined guidelines for when a lump of cells stops being just a lump of cells. Also, I am pro abortion. Abortion should always be an option for women who get pregnant on accident, or because they got raped. Men should also be able to fight for abortion in court if their insane girlfriends lie about being on birth control, or cut holes in condoms. I also, think there should be mandatory abortion for situations where the parents are mentally handicapped, and there's sufficient evidence that the child will turn out to be as well. That might be going too far for some, but I don't really care about political correctness, which is why I will never be a politician.

grandpasimpson.gif

@gamefreak9 said:

However I really don't know if I agree that women should be the only person deciding if the child should be kept... I mean there are cases where the guy wants to keep the kid the woman doesn't... men should have rights over their potential kin too.

And last interesting thing I have to say is that it is incoherent to be pro abortion and not be pro post-birth abortion(also known as infanticide). If someone is interested in why i will find the link, otherwise no point in digging.

I have a problem on men having a say on abortion as it is loaded with danger. My experiemce with control freaks of the male kind, is that they will do anything to control a woman. Having a baby gives them enormous power to stay in the life of a woman who doesn't want them. There could never a suitable law that could fix the unintended consequences. Plus, I still believe it is sole decision of the woman. You can't force her to carry it and then give it away to the man.

As for infanticide - post-birth euthanasia. It is an extremely touchy area. Advocate it publicly and see what happens. If a child is born, clearly retarded and no hope of a decent life, forever encumbered with looking after them, then parents should have the right to enact euthanasia. It isn't like it would be compulsory. It should be there as an option, given the right circumstances.

What the fuck is this doing on a gaming forum?

A Fetus is a human-being the minute it is created. To think otherwise is a denial of murder.

@Contrarian said:

If someone attacks a woman and kills the foetus, they can't be charged with murder. I think that there should be a specific law that deals with that, as the impending mother has suffered great loss and the law should reflect that, but it still can't be murder as it is a foetus, not a human - in my veiw.

Depends on where you're at. There are some states here in America that will charge you with 2 counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman. It hasn't been invoked many times, but it's there. One state I know for sure makes the distinction you talk about and refers to it as "murder of an unborn fetus," or something like that.

Anyway, to answer your general question, I'm pro-choice as a matter of law and science, not morality. Abortion law in most industrialized nations bubbles out of the scientific determination of when a fetus is viable on its own, and therefore not (medically) a dependent part of the woman's body. As far as when consciousness begins? Don't know obviously, but I'd bet large sums of cash that it's not even near the vicinity of conception. The thing doesn't even have a brain yet, can't very well be aware of much.

@ccampb89 said:

What the fuck is this doing on a gaming forum?

A Fetus is a human-being the minute it is created. To think otherwise is a denial of murder.

Clearly the topic starter mistook Giant Bomb for The Escapist. snark snark.

@ccampb89 said:

What the fuck is this doing on a gaming forum?

A Fetus is a human-being the minute it is created. To think otherwise is a denial of murder.

It is called Off-Topic for a reason. You could just stop reading Off-Topic and stick to games only threads.

The minute it is created, it is just an embryo. Hardly a human is it? Abortion isn't murder regardless of the law, it is just a medical procedure. It has no effect on your life. A law against abortion is simply infringing on the rights of women with no good basis. Sure, it is killing the feotus, but it is reasonable and lawful (in most countries) killing. If it is a sin against God, then surely God will take care of it in her good time?

I find the very notion of an abortion as grotesque and unpleasant as the next person. However, it is a private matter of the woman involved.

when it's old enough to party

When it sheds its tail? I'm not exactly familiar with developmental human anatomy.

@Video_Game_King said:

When it sheds its tail? I'm not exactly familiar with developmental human anatomy.

So when are your kind ...... ahhh ........ your kind?

We must have advertising here that connects to what you read/write. All I am getting is advertisments for Obstetritians and Gynaecologists - what, no Abortion Clinics?

When I fuck it?

@Contrarian:

When they can express themselves.

@ccampb89 said:

What the fuck is this doing on a gaming forum?

A Fetus is a human-being the minute it is created. To think otherwise is a denial of murder.

Are you from 1930s 'Murrika?

@Video_Game_King said:

@Contrarian:

When they can express themselves.

Express what? Thought? Words? Or when they squeeze out (express)?

I can see the murder argument, but I'm still pro-abortion. It's not a pretty thing, but I think it's a very necessary thing in a lot of cases. Some might be of the opinion that if one is stupid enough to have unprotected sex they deserve to be stuck with a kid. But I don't think the kid in that situation deserves to be put through a turbulent childhood with erratically-supportive parents. Let's face it, having kids too early will fuck up your life forever.

@Contrarian:

When they can express their own thoughts and feelings in a clear and precise manner. Body language doesn't count; you still have to learn that shit.

When it can tell me why it should be considered human.

At birth it gains the rights of humans.

Be civil, duders.

I'm going to go with the "when it can live outside the womb" answer. Seriously, if the thing can live, it's wrong to kill it. I really, really, really dislike abortion. I tend to be on the hard-line conservative team for this issue. Sure, we can't control what a woman does with her body, but if she doesn't want a baby, she should start controlling her body!

The issue is about 1,000,000,000 times more complex than that, but I won't go any further.

Uhh 1 month. Not after its born. Before.

I fully support people living with the consequences of their actions.

Sex = possibility of pregnancy

Think before acting?

I will laugh if someone brings up the "rape!?!?" argument.

Too late it seems..

About 10 years, that's how long it takes for people to get interesting anyway.

I am totally and unrepentantly pro choice, but I think as soon as that egg is fertilized, you have a human life to bear on your conscience.

@Still_I_Cry: I too support the right of dumb people of no means to raise a child who has very little chance of thriving because its parents were too stupid for birth control. Nice troll bro.

@artgarcrunkle said:

@Still_I_Cry: I too support the right of dumb people of no means to raise a child who has very little chance of thriving because its parents were too stupid for birth control. Nice troll bro.

I too can see the future of all living beings. Nice to meet you brother.

@Still_I_Cry: No you're right, parents who resent each other (assuming they even stay together) and maybe their child and have limited financial means are just as likely to be successful parents and raise a decent human being as well adjusted financially secure parents. As a libertarian teen atheist I think if you don't want kids you should keep your legs closed [audible fart sounds]

@BoG said:

Sure, we can't control what a woman does with her body, but if she doesn't want a baby, she should start controlling her body!

Or, you know, you'll control it for her. Like a good government.