The_A_Drain

They worked well in dynamite cop (I think it was dynamite cop) and Shenmue, but in everything else they've just been annoying. Honestly, I don't think a lot of people actually know what they are, not the kinda of people who need to see a box to buy the game anyway.

MeoWayne, you are at least able to respond in a friendly manner.

My problem with lists like these (for any console) is that they often gloss over terrible games simply because they aren't available on other consoles, or because they 'looked' good at one point or another and nobody has actually played them and formed an opinion on them (and if they have, in the case of some of them, Day of Crisis being case in point, they are insane if they still think it's worth praising) and that fact nobody is prepared to admit that a console lacks a certain genre or type of game.

It's hard to describe what's missing without using words like 'serious' or whatever, im specifically avoiding hardcore because my definition of hardcore is different from the accepted, but games with a long and involving story are primarily what the Wii is missing, and it has more party games than the 360 has FPS's, it's just crazy the amount of party and/or minigames it has. And if people like that, that's fine, but for people who don't this is where the "Theres nothing on the Wii" comments are coming from, and what with an equal amount of minigame/short burst play games coming from other areas, including digital download and such like on other platforms, it's not hard to see why.

Steering away from the system wars subject (although honestly I don't think it as such, i'm just pointing out that the Wii lacks a certain type of game and is abundant with another, and that it's the reason people get bored of the Wii at the moment, including people who own one) if it's your only console, I still don't feel you should be happy to accept aweful products that are being put out for you.

As for Alex's comment about me not systematically going through each and every game on the list, how much free time to you think I have? It's also a pain in the ass scrolling up and down to view it each time, and the post would be huge, but if you want, i'll pick out the trash for you.

Animal Crossing: City Folk: Anyone who doesn't have this on the DS already probably doesn't own a Wii or want this game. And for those who do, there is no marked improvement, very few new features and almost no reason to spend the cash.
Disaster: Day of Crisis: It's aweful in every way, it combines horrid controls with ridiculous plot and dialog and horrendous game mechanics that result in a truly truly awful experience.
Deadly Creatures: Buggy gameplay and one of the crappiest combat systems ever. However it does have an interesting (ish) story and (in places) very nice visuals.
Rayman Raving Rabbids TV Party: Theres no reason to buy this if you own, say, any of 100 partygames, especially the original rabbids game. It has some laughs going for it though.
Tony Hawks Proving Ground: This was bad enough on other platforms, the Wii version is a joke, Unresponsive and finnicky controls combined with awful visuals.
Umbrella Chronicles: (coming from a HUGE Resi fan) is almost as bad as the survivor series, stupendous difficulty level and frustrating gameplay, plot and dialog has no meaning to anyone who isn't a Resi fan. At least HoTD Overkill has some comedy.

Need for Speed Carbon: While the Wii lacks in this style of racing game, Carbon is not the game to fill the gap, it's just as bad here as it was in it's other incarnations, awful context, terrible car handling, soundtrack of interest to only a very small group of people. Chav people.

Tomb Raider: Underworld: Aside from having stiff controls and bad visuals (the Wii is capable of much better but the developers ported it too lazily) it has a game breaking bug which (supposedly although I suspect it is less) effects one in four gamesaves.

Boom Blox Bash Party: Because you really need to look forward to another helping of Boom Blox. Even if you liked the first this is a little too soon and unless it has some drastic additions, pointless.

Of the rest, the only truly outstanding games are (ignoring the unreleased ones, obviously) Rock Band, Resi 4, Okami, Pikmin, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, World of Goo, No More Heroes, Mad World, Rune Factory, Kororinpa, Geometry Wars, De Blob, Zack and Wiki, and the first party titles (exclusing the above mentioned) and of those, when you consider how many are ports/re-releases, it's not hard to see why people who own more than just the Wii often complain about it's lack of games. And people who do own just a wii, have just as much right to complain for getting crappily handled ports, but it seems most people who do own solely a Wii are too fanboyed up to see they are getting bad ports.

In addition to this, Wii games often remain at a steadily high price (here anyway) they hover around or just below full retail, seemingly forever, especially first party titles, and when a lot of them are good only for short bursts of play you
can consider the price point of them a legitimate complaint, another reason the Wii needs some more lengthy and involving games.

Don't take any of this the wrong way, I love the console, I love its potential and I love some of the games it has, a couple of them are im quite confident to say, some of the best games this generation. However, on the whole anyone who can't see that the console has major deficiencies in it's library and is being treated badly in regards to ports, is a fool. If you're happy with just your Wii then more power to you, but as you can plainly see around the internet at large, most people simply are not and choose to own a wii + another current console simply because of the Wii's bottlenecked library and the quality difference with most ports.

"worthwhile and entertaining"

To who exactly? If you're perfectly happy to be entertained by something a developer can knock together in an afternoon then fine I have no problems with that, but saying these games all have worth of critical acclaim is just bullshit, especially the ones that aren't even out yet.

Games i'm not going to argue with, either because I enjoy them, or don't but acknowledge them as praiseworthy:
All first party titles, with the exceptions of Disaster Day of Crisis and Animal Crossing: City Folk

Animal Crossing City Folk is a good example of how fans will bend over and take whatever is offered to them, the huge majority of the game is exactly whats

on offer for the DS but in SDTV resolution, it offers very little new content other than a crappy microphone and a dent in the wallet.

Disaster Day of Crisis is just aweful beyond words, it looks crap, it plays badly, the dialogue makes no sense whatsoever and what little fo the story
I was presented also made absolutely no sense. Shame because I was looking forward to it.

The rest of the list seems less like a hype list and more a list of everything anybody 'might' possibly like ever. Clutching at straws much? Most of the games on the list
are either vastly inferior to their versions on other consoles (exception being MUA, which I own on both Wii and 360 simply because I feel it makes decent
use of the wii controls) or are simply full retail minigames.

Things like Geometry Wars and Boom Blox are great games sure, but nobody can seriously expect and entire library of stuff like that to sate serious gamers for more than
a few weeks, and when the more refined offerings are things like Disaster Day of Crisis, Deadly Creatures or Umbrella Chronicles then count me out.

Sure there are a good number of high quality games there, but a lot of them are just pure crap. Sure any console has similar divisions of great games and

dissapointments, but theres no denying that other consoles offer a far great amount of high quality serious games.

That said, i'm glad the Wii is bringing back 2D platformers, Warioland was awesome if a little too short, and A Boy and His Blob is definately getting my money.

Meowayne: I suggest you take Disaster: Day of Crisis off that list, it's truly abominable by any standard. I've never denied the Wii has some good games, but jesus christ if people have to look to that, you might as well throw the console out the window, it's almost unplayably bad. We played it back at Eurogamer Expo in london last year, and it was like being poked in the eye and told I should be grateful for it. It's not as bad, but the same applies to Deadly Creatures, my housemate played that through recently and the idea falls really short of it's potential, the combat mechanics are some of the worst i've seen in a long time, it has an interesting story though but I wouldn't count it as a game to look forward to.

I enjoyed this on XBLA, but a full retail game? Wowzas... Seems a little over the top but then if the audience is going to lap it up then more power to them. I certainly won't be buying this, no need to.

Huh? I never disputed that... Besides, stating that consumers don't like to buy extra peripherals during a recession is hardly denying history. Given the peripherals nature, the breakdown if the Wii's consumer base, and the economic climate, it's a logical conclusion to think that it's not going to sell as well as WiiFit. And failing to see how that could potentially effect it's adoption rate by developers is just ignorant, sure it's hardly going to shrivel and die but I never claimed it would, you seem to have misinterpreted a lot of what I was saying as some kind of doomsday prophecy for the MotionPlus.

I've stated many times I think (and hope) it will be a success, but your constant denial of just how large the non-gamer market share actually is for the wii is only fooling yourself.

"Ok, as long as it's clear we're discussing an unproven argument that is by no means close to being a factual truth, I'm fine with that, what if scenarios can be fun."
Love how you changed your original post after I responded in order to make it looks like I was conceding a point...

Bottom line is if you're not going to accept common knowledge, then either disprove it, or GTFO. A large amount of the Wii's userbase is casual or non-gamer. I don't care if you don't like it, it is a fact, disputing it only makes you look foolish.

Uhhh, no, that's not how it works.

You stated that if my argument was true, that it wouldn't be a problem to the MotionPlus' succes. I responded by stating how it in fact, would be a problem.

I also stated reasons that the Wii might have a higher attach rate now, as well as reasons that the previously posted stats are just fine, they still represent an accurate figure whether it's from a year ago or not (the current ones, from the last 12 months, won't be released by the NPD until the end of the month, so they aren't technically out of date, they are the most recent figures)

Besides, since when was the onus on me to prove something which is common knowledge? It's on you to prove that the common knowledge is in fact, wrong. It is common knowledge that a large chunk of the audience is of a casual nature, and it has been well documented that overly complex things scare and bewilder them (i'm not joking here, i'm really not, it's well documented why the NES succeeded, and why the Wii controller is shaped like it is) not to mention that even without all that, they are consumers, and consumers get pissed off with too many peripherals released within a short span of time, especially in a recession.

Edit: Besides, how many times do I have to say it, the real attach rate is lower than the PS3 because those figures include the bundled Wii Sports software, which really has no business being counted in the attach rate figures. Putting it second only to the PSP, and not by a very large margin.

"You talk about people who own the Wii as if they're retards that are happy with Wii Sports. Let's assume they fucking are that, if that makes you happy. I think that makes devoid of any market value whatsoever, whether a game uses Motion Plus or not"

Finally. I wouldn't have used the word retard for sure (it carries a much more offensive meaning in the UK than it does elsewhere) but that's about the gist of it, and the point which started the original argument. Whether you like it or not (or can even see it, if you can't then you're not paying attention) this is a large portion of the audience, noone can expect this (or Wii Sports Resort) to sell anywhere near as well as Wii Fit for some very simple reasons that have already been discussed. And when it becomes unimportant in terms of market value whether or not a game uses MotionPlus, developers turn to the least expensive option, which is not to support it, and we see support decline. (Which i'm hoping won't happen however)

If it does then go Nintendo, congrats.

Either way, denying that it's a valid point is utterly ridiculous, large numbers of people who own a Wii are most undeniably (the conventional representation of) casual, and have no reason to care about MotionPlus (beyond whatever Nintendos marketing campaign can cook up)

"so you saying "noone's arguing this" should be aimed at him."
I'm not for a second arguing about how well the Wii has sold to date. I am however, arguing that a large portion of it's audience (marketing department on overdrive or not) either won't know about, understand, or care about the MotionPlus.

I'm hoping it gets picked up by serious gamers and used by serious developers though because it looks like a fantastic addition to the controller.  I'm sure it will still be successful, but you can't argue against the fact a large portion of the audience wont care about it, or even know about it, due simply to who they are not any fault of marketing.

Those are the figures for the 07 to 08 period, from april to april (where you got january from is anyones guess) Maybe it's gone up in the 08/09 period, in fact with all the budget priced shovelware it wouldn't surprise me if it had.

The point still stands that you're trying to deny something which is a simple fact, a large portion of the Wii's audience consist of people who won't know what this peripheral is for, or why they need it, and will not know/care about it.

Edit: Woop that wasn't directed at me then.

Also, i've posted the source, the NPD... Doesn't get much saucier than that.

Also, people who have a vested interest in their jobs and their products certainly always tell the truth! Just take a look at who's on that conference list, I dare you... Besides, doesn't change the fact it was plain wrong when summarized by IGN. Whether the fault was IGN or someone else, the information is still wrong.