@bioblood22: I agree, bring on 11.11.11 :D

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

No matter why you play the game you will find yourself in combat again and again. Even if I play it for the quests and the exploration I will have to combat enemies and when I do I rather it was fun. In Oblivion I basically just mashed the right trigger until the enemy was dead and in Fallout 3 I walk up and shoot them in the head. Sure you could say I can play it differently, but there is nothing in the game that make me be more strategic. The best thing about NEw Vegas was having companions that could fight for me, but I would rather have the combat be a great experience and fight myself.

@FauxNinja: But they do.. I play Oblivion with the difficulty way down to the left because I prefer to feel like a badass and go through the game for the fun of it, not because of some arbitrary notion of challenge. But I agree though, in general if you're going to have to battle something for a while longer than that, having some form of feedback that you're hitting your target and making the combat feel a lot more "heavy" or whatever, is probably preferable.

@dagas said:

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

No matter why you play the game you will find yourself in combat again and again. Even if I play it for the quests and the exploration I will have to combat enemies and when I do I rather it was fun. In Oblivion I basically just mashed the right trigger until the enemy was dead and in Fallout 3 I walk up and shoot them in the head. Sure you could say I can play it differently, but there is nothing in the game that make me be more strategic. The best thing about NEw Vegas was having companions that could fight for me, but I would rather have the combat be a great experience and fight myself.

This. Either make enemies die quick, or add strategy and fun to the combat. Endless spamming of RT is fun for no-one.

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

Maybe not, but I leave them frustrated extremely shortly after because of it.

Extremely disappointed.

@Jack268 said:

...Second of all, the engine won't help incompetent programmers and designers.

This.

I think the poor combat and amount of bugs in past Bethesda games is due to either the scope of the games, poor design, or poor programming on the parts of the Bethesda programmers, not the Gamebryo engine. There are many games built with the Gamebryo engine that don't have any of these problems.

I guess so. Oh well eh.

Ranged anyway, hope everything still ragdolls ridiculously when you kill it.

The magic part looks amazing and I'll be focusing on that

Oh and archery

@Venatio:

Is your name Jax by any chance? >.>

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

That is true, but I would still love to see the Condemned combat in a game of this depth. That said, I played some of Oblivion, it serves the purpose well for this kind of game

@rebgav said:

@GrumpyOldMan said:

A new engine, but the same old sword cutting through the air like a plastic knife through water triggering the "clank" sound somewhere mid-swing.

Dice rolls. They would need one hell of an animation system to accurately reflect the numbers game going on behind the scenes. How do you express, through animation, that your swing missed the target because your one-handed weapon skill level is too low? How do you animate hitting for zero points due to the enemy's armor rating? I suspect that if enemies had numbers floating off them with every hit then people would just accept that it's RPG combat and the animation wouldn't be so bothersome.

Never thought of the D&D element...yeah, that would be really difficult to implement...maybe get rid of misses and just drop the attack amounts significantly for the low scores? Or have the character slip afterwords for that kind of occurrence. There are ways I'm sure, but you are right, it wouldn't be easy.

The combat is exactly why I'm probably skipping Skyrim, I think it looks awful.

@Jams said:

@FauxNinja said:

@Jams said:

What does it matter if the weapon don't react to hitting a body just right. That's a really nit picky thing to complain about. What's next? "This is has dullened me because I cannot see toe nails on my character. It breaks my immersion to not see any kind of toe nails or finger nails. I play this game for immersion and no toe nails means I'm not going to get this game anymore now..."

Give me a freaking break. Skyrim is going to be amazing and they are broadening their horizons by letting you work in the game and dual wield swords/magic. if seeing a blade move not quite right breaks your immersion, then you probably had ADD anyways and need to stick to games like CoD.

What does it matter if the weapon don't react to hitting a body just right.

don't react to hitting a body just right.

How about not at all. Also, grow up and accept that other people might have criticism on games that you are a fan of.

Don't tell me to grow up. I actually don't give more than a half a fuck about what you or anyone's complaining about. Try taking your own advice.

accept that other people might have criticism on games that you are a fan of.

You're telling ME this when at the same time, you're doing it yourself. Why don't you grow up and accept that I don't like the fact that people are complaining about something so trivial as how the sword swing animations look? Maybe if you were grown up you could see this, but obviously you're not. I've had debates with too many brick walls to keep doing it. I've said my peace, so I'm not going to respond to any more insults.

wow this is honestly one of the most immature comments i have ever seen. i agree with you that i dont mind the combat, but i can see how people would be upset that the combat hasnt been improved. the endless spamming of rt gets monotonous after awhile. they could have made it slightly better. you clearly do need to grow up. if you are so narrow minded as to not give a fuck about other peoples opinions, dont go saying that you've had "debates with too many brick walls". it seems to me that you are the brick wall here. you had no point except to put people down for not liking an admittedly poor aspect of a game that you dont mind. people can voice criticisms on games. you can also voice that you dont think its a big deal, but the way you did it made you sound like an angry 13 year old fanboy. Now i looove me some oblivion, and skyrim has me hooked, but i am not blind enough to see that they still could have done things a little better.

tldr: you need to grow up

Guess what, Condemned came out 6 years ago. If you can't match that, fucking don't bother making a first person melee game. 6 fucking years ago, still has more impact than Elder Scrolls, Dead Island.

And if the answer is "but these are RPGs!" then make me select Attack out of a menu. If you can't do the action well, then don't do it at all.

Yeah, I don't know, but I kind of got the feeling that the combat was very similar to Oblivion, but who cares, I was fine with it for what it was, secondary to the immersion.

@Brodehouse said:

Guess what, Condemned came out 6 years ago. If you can't match that, fucking don't bother making a first person melee game. 6 fucking years ago, still has more impact than Elder Scrolls, Dead Island. And if the answer is "but these are RPGs!" then make me select Attack out of a menu. If you can't do the action well, then don't do it at all.

This.

It's really daft that people whine about the industry not trying out new things and evolving and yet seem so stuck in their ways: "It's an rpg, the combat is supposed to be mind numbingly dull".

If only the melee combat could have the heavy feel of Condemned. But it doesn't its still the same floaty flail around crap that was in Oblivion. But i still played that game for over 300+ hours, so i will probably manage, but not for 300+ hours again.

Speak for yourself. Combat is the way we progress through story and the tool which is required to get from A to B in a hostile world. You'll be fighting all the time, so a good combat system is key in my opinion.

Bethesda combat has been kind of bad ever since they abandoned the pure dice rolls approach. It's not a huge deal though because no one plays their games for the combat anyway.

Yeah, Condemned had it right. I want combat to feel kinetic, physical, and heavy. I want to wince when I get hit. This awkward floaty side swipe stuff is ridiculous, especially considering how much people complained about it last time. Their solution? Finisher moves. Too bad it doesn't actually fix the fundamental problem with the Elder Scrolls combat.

It's a modified engine.  It's not completely different.  It seems like things are going to play the same, just look a little better.

Looks like a better looking, more expansive Oblivion. I couldn't ask for anything more.

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

Looks like a better looking, more expansive Oblivion. I couldn't ask for anything more.

Why couldn't you ask for anything more? What a silly turn of phrase to use in a CREATIVE INDUSTRY.

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

Everyone making excuses like "Combat isn't what this game is about!" and "Just use Ranged or Magic!" apparently just don't get it. It's a game of choice, with melee being a viable choice. It's just ugly and lacks any weight to it. Arguments that "first person combat is too hard" have been proven wrong before, where even indie-ass games do it well (Looking at you, Mount and Blade).

Bethesda is lazy, to be frank. It's the same reason their animations were busted as shit before, and it's the same reason their melee is impotent and unsatisfying now.

@CptChiken said:

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

I very much doubt that the landscape designers and the character animators are the same people.

@FauxNinja said:

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

Looks like a better looking, more expansive Oblivion. I couldn't ask for anything more.

Why couldn't you ask for anything more? What a silly turn of phrase to use in a CREATIVE INDUSTRY.

Sorry, I didn't realize that expanding on an already fantastic game wasn't creative. Please, enlighten me.

If you'd like me to elaborate on why exactly I wouldn't ask anymore of the combat, it's simply because I enjoyed how Oblivion played. I didn't get tired of how it felt to clash against any of the enemies of that game. This game seems to retain that feeling with a new, strikingly pretty environment.

@pornstorestiffi said:

If only the melee combat could have the heavy feel of Condemned. But it doesn't its still the same floaty flail around crap that was in Oblivion.

That would be oh-so-amazing!

It's sad really when you think about it. Bethesda's got all this money lying around, they can hire anyone they want in this industry, and yet here we are looking at the same joke of combat system and animations as we did back in Oblivion.

@Mmmslash said:

Everyone making excuses like "Combat isn't what this game is about!" and "Just use Ranged or Magic!" apparently just don't get it. It's a game of choice, with melee being a viable choice. It's just ugly and lacks any weight to it. Arguments that "first person combat is too hard" have been proven wrong before, where even indie-ass games do it well (Looking at you, Mount and Blade).

Bethesda is lazy, to be frank. It's the same reason their animations were busted as shit before, and it's the same reason their melee is impotent and unsatisfying now.

Yeah they only make some of the most complex and ambitious games with huge detailed open worlds and 100+ hours of gameplay. So lazy...

But folks the game is sooooo purty. And soooooo open. And sooooo long. And sooooooooooooooooooo on one disk for the 360. Why do we have to dissect something that isn't even out yet and bitch about something that we have yet to get our hands on?

@ShiftyMagician said:

Unfortunately if all you wanted is to smash dudes and not really focus on the more grand-scale aspects of an Elder Scrolls game, you are looking at the wrong franchise at this point in time.

@gike987 said:

@Mmmslash said:

Everyone making excuses like "Combat isn't what this game is about!" and "Just use Ranged or Magic!" apparently just don't get it. It's a game of choice, with melee being a viable choice. It's just ugly and lacks any weight to it. Arguments that "first person combat is too hard" have been proven wrong before, where even indie-ass games do it well (Looking at you, Mount and Blade).

Bethesda is lazy, to be frank. It's the same reason their animations were busted as shit before, and it's the same reason their melee is impotent and unsatisfying now.

Yeah they only make some of the most complex and ambitious games with huge detailed open worlds and 100+ hours of gameplay. So lazy...

Nah they're clearly lazy. They're practically Activision, shitting out a new Elder Scrolls game once every 5 or 6 years!

@A_Cute_Squirtle:

I was just saying that being unable to ask for anything more is a bit of a daft thing to say, because it is a bethesda game, so there is always alot to ask for. Luckily that's what mods are for :)

@SlasherMan said:

@pornstorestiffi said:

If only the melee combat could have the heavy feel of Condemned. But it doesn't its still the same floaty flail around crap that was in Oblivion.

That would be oh-so-amazing!

It's sad really when you think about it. Bethesda's got all this money lying around, they can hire anyone they want in this industry, and yet here we are looking at the same joke of combat system and animations as we did back in Oblivion.

You can't compare those two games because they have a different focus. And I am not talking about getting more animators or developers, but talking about the limited capabilities of the consoles and to a lesser amount of the pc. Now, I am no game developer, but there is of course a finite amount of stuff an engine can calculate/animate/light/render/.. before running out of resources. Condemned was a lineair game in pretty small area's and a very limited amount of enemies on screen at any time, without any other complex game mechanics going on at the same time. Skyrim is clearly different. I think most of us would agree that a better melee system would be great, but not if that means compromises to the huge landscapes, flying dragons and deeper RPG mechanics.

Yeah, it's amazing to me how the sword swinging animation is exactly the same as Oblivion, even though they swear up and down they made a new engine and everything new.
It's blatantly obvious that's not the case. Why not spend all that effort trying to prove something that aint true and instead actually MAKE NEW SHIT? Jesus.

Not saying the atmosphere and environments don't look amazing.

@gike987: Games that are also notoriously buggy. Not fixing your issues is lazy game development, I don't care who you are. I'd rather play a quality game than a quantity game.

@jozzy said:

@SlasherMan said:

@pornstorestiffi said:

If only the melee combat could have the heavy feel of Condemned. But it doesn't its still the same floaty flail around crap that was in Oblivion.

That would be oh-so-amazing!

It's sad really when you think about it. Bethesda's got all this money lying around, they can hire anyone they want in this industry, and yet here we are looking at the same joke of combat system and animations as we did back in Oblivion.

You can't compare those two games because they have a different focus. And I am not talking about getting more animators or developers, but talking about the limited capabilities of the consoles and to a lesser amount of the pc. Now, I am no game developer, but there is of course a finite amount of stuff an engine can calculate/animate/light/render/.. before running out of resources. Condemned was a lineair game in pretty small area's and a very limited amount of enemies on screen at any time, without any other complex game mechanics going on at the same time. Skyrim is clearly different. I think most of us would agree that a better melee system would be great, but not if that means compromises to the huge landscapes, flying dragons and deeper RPG mechanics.

I'm not comparing the two games at all, i didn't write that any ware in my post. So with that out of the way, Skyrim uses a completely overhauled engine, so your saying that they couldn't have taken the time to implement a better melee system? but however they did fix the damn 3rd person controls, which to me is a completely useless feature in that game.

Yes Condemned was a linear game and yes the focus was on melee. But its not like Skyrim has any other complex gameplay mechanics going for it. The horse riding looks pretty atrocious, judging from the demo video they just released. The spell casting looks nice graphically compared to Oblivion but the casting animations still seem very weak.

I know the game has a lot to calculate in the world, AI, landscapes and what not. But come on, Skyrim looks to feature just much combat as Oblivion, and making a action based FPS-RPG where the melee still lacks any impact, just seems a bit weird to me.

Adding impact to the combat would not require extra computational resources. Just a good animator. Something that bethesda often struggles with. Sadface.

I'm fine with the people who are disappointed with the way the melee combat is looking. Yes, the combat in TES games so far has been less than stellar. I found it occasionally satisfying but I'm not surprised other people hated it. But for me, the blood coming off of strikes, the weapon perks, and finishing moves are more than enough of a change for me to want to make a melee character at some point.

Although, I do feel sorry for the people who are flat out refusing to get Skyrim because the melee isn't what they were hoping it will be. I think they are focusing too much on what is one part of a huge, huge game and will be missing out.

@DaemonBlack said:

I'm fine with the people who are disappointed with the way the melee combat is looking. Yes, the combat in TES games so far has been less than stellar. I found it occasionally satisfying but I'm not surprised other people hated it. But for me, the blood coming off of strikes, the weapon perks, and finishing moves are more than enough of a change for me to want to make a melee character at some point.

Although, I do feel sorry for the people who are flat out refusing to get Skyrim because the melee isn't what they were hoping it will be. I think they are focusing too much on what is one part of a huge, huge game and will be missing out.

^This is exactly my position

its true that the melee combat in elder scrolls games arent the best. but i had fun with it if you dick around with it enough. The new additions just got me more excited.

There are always some developers that do things better than others. Condemned got melee combat down pretty nicely, but that was the primary focus of the game. Elder Scrolls are about creating a character and doing whatever the hell you want. or at least why me and my friends keep going back to it. the combat isnt the best by a long shot, but thats not what i look at when playing this game. this is my own opinion. i understand why people are disappointed with it, but i dont think it should dissuade you from at least trying it out to see if its actually as big a deal as you think now.

The terrible combat, repetitive oblivion portal environments and repetitive dungeons are the main reasons why I have never been able to make it through Oblivion as many times as I've tried in the past. Here's hoping there is enough quest, enemy, environment and combat variety to keep me interested this time around. If I can play the game right through in third person I'll be happy.

@DaemonBlack: I am not getting Skyrim because of the crappy melee. I dealt with it on Morrowind and Oblivion and I am sure I'll deal with it on Skyrim. I am not getting it because I am fucking sick of buying games and then a mere year later the GOTY comes out with all the DLC for the same price of a regular game. I am sick of being getting the short stick for being a loyal fan.

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken said:

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

I very much doubt that the landscape designers and the character animators are the same people.

Im not saying they are the same people, im saying that they would put more resorses into the atmosphere and world, such as the animators having to animate all the NPCs in the game. I agree that it doesnt look so great but underneath ( as someone else said) the hits are still governed by dice rolls. Something as trivial as the sword swings looking a bit off shouldnt put you off the game, as i said the elder scroll games are about story, not action.

@WinterSnowblind said:

It's a modified version of Gamebryo, definitely not a completely new engine despite claims to the contrary.

Pretty sure Bethesda themselves have said it's a brand new engine.

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken said:

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

I very much doubt that the landscape designers and the character animators are the same people.

Im not saying they are the same people, im saying that they would put more resorses into the atmosphere and world, such as the animators having to animate all the NPCs in the game. I agree that it doesnt look so great but underneath ( as someone else said) the hits are still governed by dice rolls. Something as trivial as the sword swings looking a bit off shouldnt put you off the game, as i said the elder scroll games are about story, not action.

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken said:

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

I very much doubt that the landscape designers and the character animators are the same people.

Im not saying they are the same people, im saying that they would put more resorses into the atmosphere and world, such as the animators having to animate all the NPCs in the game. I agree that it doesnt look so great but underneath ( as someone else said) the hits are still governed by dice rolls. Something as trivial as the sword swings looking a bit off shouldnt put you off the game, as i said the elder scroll games are about story, not action.

They aren't about "the story".. As they generally have a paper thin plot. They are about "the experience". And combat is a big part of that, considering how long you spend hammering right trigger. Also. The animators dont make bespoke anims for each npc. The make anims per race or gender the apply to all meshes. So tgat is not a good argument.

They also are not about ONE story. People who play the main quest and stop playing are missing about 95% of the game. Yeah the main quests so far have not been good, but they weren't bad either. However, TES games make up for that by having dozens upon dozens of other quests that are self contained and unique and some are flat out great (Dark Brotherhood?) Or not even formal quests at all. Some dungeons had their own unique stories contained in books and weren't part of any quest.

And show me one game where developers make unique animations for every single NPC. Especially in a huge open world game like Skyrim, asking them to do anything like that is unrealistic.

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken

@FauxNinja said:

@CptChiken said:

These games arent supposed to be about the combat they are about the story. They have probably put more resorces into the landscape than the fighting... which in my opinion is the right thing to focus on.

I very much doubt that the landscape designers and the character animators are the same people.

Im not saying they are the same people, im saying that they would put more resorses into the atmosphere and world, such as the animators having to animate all the NPCs in the game. I agree that it doesnt look so great but underneath ( as someone else said) the hits are still governed by dice rolls. Something as trivial as the sword swings looking a bit off shouldnt put you off the game, as i said the elder scroll games are about story, not action.

They aren't about "the story".. As they generally have a paper thin plot. They are about "the experience". And combat is a big part of that, considering how long you spend hammering right trigger. Also. The animators dont make bespoke anims for each npc. The make anims per race or gender the apply to all meshes. So tgat is not a good argument.

They also are not about ONE story. People who play the main quest and stop playing are missing about 95% of the game. Yeah the main quests so far have not been good, but they weren't bad either. However, TES games make up for that by having dozens upon dozens of other quests that are self contained and unique and some are flat out great (Dark Brotherhood?) Or not even formal quests at all. Some dungeons had their own unique stories contained in books and weren't part of any quest.

And show me one game where developers make unique animations for every single NPC. Especially in a huge open world game like Skyrim, asking them to do anything like that is unrealistic.

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

Looks like a better looking, more expansive Oblivion. I couldn't ask for anything more.

Why couldn't you ask for anything more? What a silly turn of phrase to use in a CREATIVE INDUSTRY.

Yeah, I just don't see it being very engaging for what they're trying to do - create immersion in their world. The problem is that I'll feel like I don't belong, because everything else looks great, but I'm just wildly swinging my sword around like a stereotypical video game character.