This doesn't really bother me, the weapons and combat look good to me, so what if the animation doesn't accurately represent what amount of damage you're dealing? The enemies look like they reel back if hit with a powerful enough attack, or it they're repelled with a shield. I just don't see the issue.

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

That's a poor argument. You can't excuse the poor combat, just because the focus of these games is story & setting.

Games are there to be played, and if they don't play well... then they possess a major flaw.

First person melee combat can be done well. Just look at the Condemned series & the recently released Dead Island. Both games achieved what The Elder Scrolls never has.

I really want to play Skyrim, but if it plays anything like Oblivion, then I just can't put myself through that. The combat in Oblivion literally stopped me from playing it.

I'll disagree with you about Dead Island in general, but at least they discovered that enemies should flinch when struck instead of standing stiff as a board.

As barebones as the combat looks, I'm still going ruin my social life for months playing this game and I'll probably love every minute of it.

Maybe that's why I suck at Oblivion. I don't use Magic, and apparently you're supposed to (?). I like to be a sword and shield dude. The animations don't bother me though. I kinda like it.

After watching the E3 video they released a few days ago I'm not as excited as I was for the game. I find melee combat in all RPG's really boring, I never play melee warrior classes, so that doesn't bother me any. However, unless the game pauses when you switch to different magic spells it look like it's going to be a major pain in the ass to use magic, because you need to pop open that list and filter down it every time you want to switch powers; which looks like it takes several seconds to do even when you know where to look. If it pauses when you go looking I guess it won't be that big of a deal, but I can still foresee me just wishing I had a power tray to activate my powers from the entire time. It just looks unnecessarily cumbersome.
 
The only thing that's giving me hope that this won't break the game for me is that it was console gameplay they were showing and not PC. Hopefully the PC will allow you to do stuff like bind certain spells to hot keys, or make a short list of powers that you can cycle through with the scroll wheel. They won't of course, but I will keep hope that they take the effort to do stuff like that until I see otherwise.

Two words: Bethesda Softworks

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

That's a poor argument. You can't excuse the poor combat, just because the focus of these games is story & setting.

Games are there to be played, and if they don't play well... then they possess a major flaw.

First person melee combat can be done well. Just look at the Condemned series & the recently released Dead Island. Both games achieved what The Elder Scrolls never has.

I really want to play Skyrim, but if it plays anything like Oblivion, then I just can't put myself through that. The combat in Oblivion literally stopped me from playing it.

Probably because it's a terrible game, just like all of the other Elder Scrolls games.

@crusader8463 said:

After watching the E3 video they released a few days ago I'm not as excited as I was for the game. I find melee combat in all RPG's really boring, I never play melee warrior classes, so that doesn't bother me any. However, unless the game pauses when you switch to different magic spells it look like it's going to be a major pain in the ass, because you need to pop open that list and filter down it every time you want to switch powers; which looks like it takes several seconds to do even when you know where to look. If it pauses when you go looking I guess it won't be that big of a deal, but I can still foresee me just wishing I had a power tray to activate my powers from the entire time. It just looks unnecessarily cumbersome. The only thing that's giving me hope is that it was console gameplay they were showing and not PC. Hopefully the PC will allow you to do stuff like bind certain spells to hot keys, or make a short list of powers that you can cycle through with the scroll wheel. They won't of course, but I will keep hope that they take the effort to do stuff like that until I see otherwise.

It seemed like the game paused in the video.

@crusader8463 said:

However, unless the game pauses when you switch to different magic spells it look like it's going to be a major pain in the ass, because you need to pop open that list and filter down it every time you want to switch powers; which looks like it takes several seconds to do even when you know where to look. If it pauses when you go looking I guess it won't be that big of a deal, but I can still foresee me just wishing I had a power tray to activate my powers from the entire time. It just looks unnecessarily cumbersome.

Aa far as I know, you can still hotkey spells (probably d-pad on consoles, number keys on PC).

I, for one, don't see any problem here. At all. I liked the combat in Oblivion. I actually really liked it much, much more than most RPG's. Why? Because I could actually dictate my moves instead of having to pick them from a menu and wait for a fucking cooldown timer (*ahem* Dragon Age Origins, every JRPG ever *ahem*) and I think the combat in Skyrim looks really, really fun. Especially at the end where he summons a frickin' lightning storm out of his hand after fighting two giants, two wooly mammoths, and one dragon, and is in the process of killing a second dragon. If you didn't find that to be one of the most awesome things ever put into a video game, you might want to go get your head checked.

Yeah, I know, opinions and all that. Still, you should get your head checked if you want great combat and didn't like the looks of that.

@believer258 said:

I, for one, don't see any problem here. At all. I liked the combat in Oblivion. I actually really liked it much, much more than most RPG's. Why? Because I could actually dictate my moves instead of having to pick them from a menu and wait for a fucking cooldown timer (*ahem* Dragon Age Origins, every JRPG ever *ahem*) and I think the combat in Skyrim looks really, really fun. Especially at the end where he summons a frickin' lightning storm out of his hand after fighting two giants, two wooly mammoths, and one dragon, and is in the process of killing a second dragon. If you didn't find that to be one of the most awesome things ever put into a video game, you might want to go get your head checked.

Yeah, I know, opinions and all that. Still, you should get your head checked if you want great combat and didn't like the looks of that.

I also didn't have a problem with the Oblivion combat, I don't really know what people are complaining about. Overly complex combat would ruin ES in my opinion.

No one is asking for complex combat ffs. They are asking for that when your weapon hits an enemy there be SOME reaction - both on the player/camera and the enemy. The current atrocious "airblade" combat that the elder scrolls ships with shouldnt be acceptable in this day and age with their budget. I have seen indie games with better combat animations/impact. Apologists should try and understand the point of view who want to enjoy elder scrolls and are put off by the immersion breaking combat.

@crusader8463: I can understand why people may not like Dead Island, but I can't understand how they cannot at least appreciate what it does with melee combat (I'm specifically referring to the Analog combat mode). It gives you complete control over how you swing your weapon, and the feeling of impact it gives you is extremely satisfying.

The Elder Scrolls games are of a much higher quality than Dead Island, yes. But, for me, there is one clear winner in the combat department... and that is Dead Island.

I just think it would be cool if Skyrim took the great parts about that system, and implemented it into their game.

@crusader8463: On the grunts sure. That tactic doesn't work on the bigger infected types.

Plus, you are fighting zombies in Dead Island. You're not fighting intelligent beings of any type.

I'm just suggesting that they take the analog combat mode from Dead Island, and put it into Skyrim. I'm not suggesting they take the zombies and AI from it too.

I wasn't even suggesting that they take the kick.

Admittedly what I'm asking for would benefit controllers more than mouse & keyboard... but if it means it amounts to more than just clicking/mashing one button to attack, then I think we'd be in store for a better game.

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

Quoted for future pages of nonsense.

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

Quoted for future pages of nonsense.

@project343 said:

RPG is RPG.

With that said, investing 20 hours into Dead Island, then watching that Skyrim video made Skyrim look slightly less appealing. Visceral first-person RPG melee combat can be done.

Took you until Dead Island to figure that out? I had that shit learned back at Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

@project343 said:

RPG is RPG.

With that said, investing 20 hours into Dead Island, then watching that Skyrim video made Skyrim look slightly less appealing. Visceral first-person RPG melee combat can be done.

Took you until Dead Island to figure that out? I had that shit learned back at Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

$100 million, and we get one of the worst looking FPS melee systems of this generation?

Standards are raised now, Dead Island, Zeno Clash, Dark Messiah where the melee is momentum-based is the way to go.

Are they actually using dice-rolls? Dice rolls in a First-Person game feel really stupid, and kills immersion.

Wasn't there a mod for Oblivion that changed the way the melee system behaved to be more physics impacted and added new moves along the lines of Dark Messiah? I remember coming across it a while back but never installed it. Anybody here have experience with it?

Mount and Blade still has the best melee combat of any game I've played

Wasn't there a mod for Oblivion that changed the way the melee system behaved to be more physics impacted and added new moves along the lines of Dark Messiah? I remember coming across it a while back but never installed it. Anybody here have experience with it?

@Jazz2 said:

Just pick magic or ranged.

@FauxNinja said:

@MrKlorox

Wasn't there a mod for Oblivion that changed the way the melee system behaved to be more physics impacted and added new moves along the lines of Dark Messiah? I remember coming across it a while back but never installed it. Anybody here have experience with it?

Yeah. There were a couple of them. 'adrenaline combat' and skycaptain's 'deadly reflex'. I couldnt play oblivion w/o deadly relex.

Hell yes. That is what got me through Oblivion. Frankly after Might and Magic and recently Dead Island I was assuming (until I watched the gameplay) that Skyrim would -surely- be upgraded with their "new engine" to an epic feeling combat system.

I'm still going to buy the game in all honesty, I'll just be playing a completely ranged/magic using character. It's quite frustrating to be forced into that, but after playing a number of good first person melee games, I'm done with how that melee looked.

@FauxNinja said:

@MrKlorox

Wasn't there a mod for Oblivion that changed the way the melee system behaved to be more physics impacted and added new moves along the lines of Dark Messiah? I remember coming across it a while back but never installed it. Anybody here have experience with it?

Yeah. There were a couple of them. 'adrenaline combat' and skycaptain's 'deadly reflex'. I couldnt play oblivion w/o deadly relex.

Hell yes. That is what got me through Oblivion. Frankly after Might and Magic and recently Dead Island I was assuming (until I watched the gameplay) that Skyrim would -surely- be upgraded with their "new engine" to an epic feeling combat system.

I'm still going to buy the game in all honesty, I'll just be playing a completely ranged/magic using character. It's quite frustrating to be forced into that, but after playing a number of good first person melee games, I'm done with how that melee looked.

@Giantstalker said:

Mount and Blade still has the best melee combat of any game I've played

Yep, and no one gives it any credit.

@Artemesia said:

@project343 said:

RPG is RPG.

With that said, investing 20 hours into Dead Island, then watching that Skyrim video made Skyrim look slightly less appealing. Visceral first-person RPG melee combat can be done.

Took you until Dead Island to figure that out? I had that shit learned back at Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

I don't consider Dark Messiah to be an RPG atoll. It's a fantasy action-adventure game with minor RPG elements. Both Dead Island and Oblivion/Skyrim are all about percentages, crits, numerical values, and silly RPG AI.

@Mikemcn said:

@Giantstalker said:

Mount and Blade still has the best melee combat of any game I've played

Yep, and no one gives it any credit.

This.

For multiplayer, not so balanced in all honesty, but still fun. In singleplayer however?

Best melee until Dead Island IMO

@project343 said:

@Artemesia said:

@project343 said:

RPG is RPG.

With that said, investing 20 hours into Dead Island, then watching that Skyrim video made Skyrim look slightly less appealing. Visceral first-person RPG melee combat can be done.

Took you until Dead Island to figure that out? I had that shit learned back at Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

I don't consider Dark Messiah to be an RPG atoll. It's a fantasy action-adventure game with minor RPG elements. Both Dead Island and Oblivion/Skyrim are all about percentages, crits, numerical values, and silly RPG AI.

Excuse me, but how was Oblivion about percentages and crits? You either hit, or you didn't. You had a strong and weak attack. The damage depended on your 'whatever' skill and your weapon. And that's about as far as the melee combat went.

@FauxNinja: i understand what youre looking for and for the most part i agree. But from some of the gameplay videos at some points there is some camera / movement reaction when you are hit and if you wind up for a bigger hit. And from what i read in an article, the shield has to be used more as a parry than just holding your shield trigger. i know thats not exactly what youre looking for, but there seems to be some minor changes to the combat to make it feel heavier. i have also read several accounts of reviewers who played an hour of it and said that the combat felt satisfying and heavier than oblivion. now i havent personally played the game so i dont know this for sure, but it sounds to be a slight improvement, but i do agree the combat still could do with a larger overhaul. i cant let that make me not play this game though. i didnt even mind the combat in oblivion, because somehow i managed to have some fun with it. and the whole game promises to have a lot more things to do than oblivion.

There is a difference between a good combat system and being satisfied with how it looks. Also, I dont know any game where hand to hand combat is good or accurate as what many of you may expect. Weapons go through people and you dont see body parts flying off or the animation slow down depending on how much of the enemy you got. The only game where it felt good was Jedi Knight 2, because you had a god damned light saber, and one good hit was all you needed to kill any enemy.

I don't get the huge "melee combat suxorz!" issue. For one thing, based on the videos, there is plenty of reaction and impact, far more than was in Oblivion and twenty million times better than was in Morrowind. Do you really want a game where the instant you hit something with a sword the bad guy curls into the fetal position and starts sobbing over the gaping hole in his arm? Every time your character gets whacked really hard with a sword you lose a limb and can never get it back? Is that the kind of "immersive combat" you want, guys? Also, how many of you have even played Skyrim? Isn't PAX the only place where it's been available? I'm not making any judgments on how bad or good the combat is until I can actually pick up the controller and start beating people to death with a mace.

No, combat isn't the issue here. I'm more pissed about fire. When guys are on fire in the Skyrim demo, the flesh doesn't melt off their bones (all right, that may be a little too much to ask). Also, they don't seem to be screaming their heads off. Hell, I have the exact same issue with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. The only game I've played so far that has actually had a decently realistic reaction to characters being FUCKING ON FIRE has been Red Dead Redemption, where John Marston starts screaming and running around like a crazy person when he gets hit with a Molotov. THAT's how it should work when a dragon breathes on you. Also, since when has shooting fire out of your hands not had some kind of environmental effect? I want to shoot a tree with a fireball and watch it burn down to the ground. Same goes for ice. I want rivers to freeze when I throw an ice spell at it. These things are way more immersion breaking for me than the swordplay not being on par with games that are designed specifically for the combat and nothing else. Also, I really hope they've nerfed invisibility, because that was just straight up game breaking.

@Mikemcn said:

@Giantstalker said:

Mount and Blade still has the best melee combat of any game I've played

Yep, and no one gives it any credit.

This.

For multiplayer, not so balanced in all honesty, but still fun. In singleplayer however?

Best melee until Dead Island IMO

I'm glad there's plenty of people in this thread that have the same view on the stuff that I do, and for the people who are saying they use the time they don't spend on making a good combat system on making a richer world? Did you play Oblivion?

These games drive me bananas because they're so close but so far from the game I really want.

"No one plays these games for the combat"

the combat is why i don't play these games. i could give a crap about the storyline and atmosphere if the actual gameplay is not fun and the combat mechanics are horrible.

@FauxNinja said:

Adding impact to the combat would not require extra computational resources. Just a good animator. Something that bethesda often struggles with. Sadface.

Are you sure? I would think that deciding which animation to use based on what weapon you are using, what weapon and or shield you enemy is wearing, what position you are both in relatively to eachother and what kind of attack you are using would cost some computational resources. and I am sure I am forgetting at least a couple more factors to take into effect. Like I said, no expert so I have no problem with being proved wrong by an experienced developer.

As long as the game has an epic Dark Brotherhood quest line, quite frankly I don't care. Don't forget that this is an RPG.

i haven't followed Skyrim much, but if it's the same combat as Obvilion, then i don't know if i'll be so interested. i really, really like how Condemned did first person melee and Dead Island as of recent seems to have done a great job with it.

The combat, and animations in general, still look behind the curve, and only marginally improved from ES4, agreed. However, third person may actually be viable this time which could help some, and bottomline, it's the massive world, and all the rpg layering that'll make the game irresistable, and uber addictive. Bethesda knows what they do well, and they've chosen to improve those aspects instead of actually fixing some of the weaker parts like combat and animation fluidity. They probably gave up on that, if they ever even really wanted to up the bar significantly, when they opted to upgrade the existing engine instead of trashing it and starting over with something new and different. Business model had a lot of influence I bet.

I just don't want to have the enemies take 100 slashes, 20 arrows, or have myself running backwards while shooting spells. I hated the melee system of Oblivion. It was "block, slash, slash, repeat" but that at higher levels, if they just make it so that I'm not there forever attacking one enemy I'll be fine. The ranged wasn't better in my opinion. The arrows never did enough damage, and the spells system was bullshit. I shouldn't have spells that cost over what is non-glitching magicka pool. The arrows look to be better and so does the magic so I'm not going to complain about that, but then again, was he facing low level enemies? Just don't make enemies stab/arrow/magic sponges.

@FauxNinja said:

Adding impact to the combat would not require extra computational resources. Just a good animator. Something that bethesda often struggles with. Sadface.

Are you sure? I would think that deciding which animation to use based on what weapon you are using, what weapon and or shield you enemy is wearing, what position you are both in relatively to eachother and what kind of attack you are using would cost some computational resources. and I am sure I am forgetting at least a couple more factors to take into effect. Like I said, no expert so I have no problem with being proved wrong by an experienced developer.

@jozzy

@FauxNinja said:

Adding impact to the combat would not require extra computational resources. Just a good animator. Something that bethesda often struggles with. Sadface.

Are you sure? I would think that deciding which animation to use based on what weapon you are using, what weapon and or shield you enemy is wearing, what position you are both in relatively to eachother and what kind of attack you are using would cost some computational resources. and I am sure I am forgetting at least a couple more factors to take into effect. Like I said, no expert so I have no problem with being proved wrong by an experienced developer.

I however, AM an experienced developer. And the factors you just mentioned are computationally insignificant.

@easthill said:

Excuse me, but how was Oblivion about percentages and crits? You either hit, or you didn't. You had a strong and weak attack. The damage depended on your 'whatever' skill and your weapon. And that's about as far as the melee combat went.

Thief-type characters have a wide array of crit abilities and bonuses. And every skill-up affects your damage percentages with just about everything. Just because you don't have a talent tree stating "+5%" doesn't mean that your sole focus is increasing calculated values in order to game a system.

And I understand that technically all (most) video games have damage numbers--whether they are shown or not. But they're often relatively out of player control. And that is arguably what makes Dark Messiah a action game as opposed to an RPG. You are choosing amongst very few, carefully balanced options (like a 'Fireball' talent) as opposed to deciding between more concrete, minute values.

In either case, the damage done is Skyrim should not be influenced by your precision with stabbing folks, but by statistical values behind that. But I think Dead Island does an admirable job sacrificing the worst parts of both camps in favour of a deep system that feels utterly rewarding--better than any proper first-person action-RPG before it.

@Funkydupe said:

@Master_Funk said:

First person combat is hard to get right, and they would rather put resources into the world and the quests. People dont come to these games for combat

Speak for yourself. Combat is the way we progress through story and the tool which is required to get from A to B in a hostile world. You'll be fighting all the time, so a good combat system is key in my opinion.

"You'll be fighting all the time" ... have you ever played a game by Bethesda? You spend more time wandering the world, citites, talkin to folks, than fighting.

This is why I play the PC versions of these games, users can improve upon it later. That being said, I do like the finishing moves they showed off in the E3 demo.