As most of you listened to the bombcast by now, you'll know that the guys kinda criticised the makers of Dishonored for using an...archaic, shell we say...method of letting player know that he/she is in a "sneak" stance. I feel that this criticism is wrong somewhat misguided since that is not the case at all as shown in the screen below.

Obviously there's a very clear indicator as to which stance you are in. I really don't get how the guys didn't notice it. Personally I like how Arkane found a clear and subtle way to indicate the stance for the player without ruining the aesthetics of the art style.

Also, in this game there's a limit to how much cover a shadow will provide as a suitable hide spot. It really has to do with position and distance from the guard. Up close the guards will notice you right away. Besides, there's enough vertical hide spots for you to use. Combine that with Dark Vision and the need for a visual cue becomes moot.

I don't understand. If that is the regular stance, then what does the sneak stance look like? Educate someone that has not played the game yet.

I was thinking that too.

I learned that how to tell based on how he holds the knife, I thought that was easy enough.

I think you might have missed the other half of your screenshot. As Brad was talking about the indicator, I was screaming at my portable media solution about the stance changes. He obviously holds his sword completely differently in stealth and combat stances. I actually used the sword hand way more than the indication icon.

yeah the sword switchs to a backwards grip. theres even a stylized animation for it! And i only played the game for maybe 2 hours before i took it back.

@Dogma: @Draugen: @Nightriff: Seems like I missed a screen. Fixed

Something i also noticed, but i'm not sure about this one, is that the edges of the screen actually go darker in stealth, it's barely noticeable but it does happen.

@Shirogane: Yeah, you're right about that. It's pretty subtle.

Send them an email. THEY MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR INCOMPETENCE...OR IGNORANCE. WHICHEVER ONE IS MORE APPROPRIATE.

@mordukai: I think that it's a criticism similar to that of the difference between Blinking on a spot and Blinking up a ledge. The different indicator that appears delineates the two, but they felt it just wasn't clear enough and wish it was perhaps a different color, especially for when you're focusing on just getting around. So, their problem with the stealth indicator is that, while it can be clearly seen in screens, they think that it being even more apparent would have been helpful. It's not that the difference isn't clear when you look at it; it's whether someone feels it is clear enough when actively playing the game. I can see how some might think it's a fine enough difference to tell on the fly, but they have said that they feel otherwise.

Though, these are still just quibbles on a game we all seem to hold in high regard.

@Ksaw said:

@Shirogane: Yeah, you're right about that. It's pretty subtle.

Yes, it does dim. Personally I feel that this indicator is the most nonintrusive visual cue since the Visibility Gem.

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai: I think that it's a criticism similar to that of the difference between Blinking on a spot and Blinking up a ledge. The different indicator that appears delineates the two, but they felt it just wasn't clear enough and wish it was perhaps a different color, especially for when you're focusing on just getting around. So, their problem with the stealth indicator is that, while it can be clearly seen in screens, they think that it being even more apparent would have been helpful. It's not that the difference isn't clear when you look at it; it's whether someone feels it is clear enough when actively playing the game. I can see how some might think it's a fine enough difference to tell on the fly, but they have said that they feel otherwise.

Though, these are still just quibbles on a game we all seem to hold in high regard.

It might hold true if it acted the same. Let me explain. Take the game Brad mentioned, Escape From Butcher Bay. In that game sneaking has more to do with visibility by using lack of light. The color change is to indicate to the player that "at the moment you are not visible to the guards" which worked fine for that. Dishonored is not about that at all. Shadows are only suitable from a distance, up close they are useless. If you're close enough and in the guard's Cone of Sight then you are made no matter even if you are in the shadows. In Dishonored it's about using actual objects for cover, avoiding the guards Cone of Sight, and of course using the vertical hide spots. Why would you need a visual cue if you are already hiding behind cover.

Ahh! Yes! That cleared things up! Seems to be quite clear how they mark that you are in sneak mode. Nice subtle indicator.

@Aegon said:

Send them an email. THEY MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR INCOMPETENCE...OR IGNORANCE. WHICHEVER ONE IS MORE APPROPRIATE.

My post mentioned nothing of incompetence or ignorance, merely an oversight by them. I don't understand your rather pissy response but I came to terms with this sort of hero worship that goes on here. The second someone offers a correction or criticism of any sort toward the crew then the defense force leaps in to save the day. Offer something more constructive next time and please press your Caps Lock. Nice attempt at trolling though.

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai: I think that it's a criticism similar to that of the difference between Blinking on a spot and Blinking up a ledge. The different indicator that appears delineates the two, but they felt it just wasn't clear enough and wish it was perhaps a different color, especially for when you're focusing on just getting around. So, their problem with the stealth indicator is that, while it can be clearly seen in screens, they think that it being even more apparent would have been helpful. It's not that the difference isn't clear when you look at it; it's whether someone feels it is clear enough when actively playing the game. I can see how some might think it's a fine enough difference to tell on the fly, but they have said that they feel otherwise.

Though, these are still just quibbles on a game we all seem to hold in high regard.

It might hold true if it acted the same. Let me explain. Take the game Brad mentioned, Escape From Butcher Bay. In that game sneaking has more to do with visibility by using lack of light. The color change is to indicate to the player that "at the moment you are not visible to the guards" which worked fine for that. Dishonored is not about that at all. Shadows are only suitable from a distance, up close they are useless. If you're close enough and in the guard's Cone of Sight then you are made no matter even if you are in the shadows. In Dishonored it's about using actual objects for cover, avoiding the guards Cone of Sight, and of course using the vertical hide spots. Why would you need a visual cue if you are already hiding behind cover.

So, your argument is that the stealth position is so ultimately meaningless anyway that it only warrants a very subtle indicator? I suppose there's an argument to be made for that. I don't know what their style of play is, but perhaps being in a stealth position does matter to them a bit more. I agree that it isn't -that- important in my own estimation, but I can see how someone might think it was a tad too subtle when actively moving around in the game. I don't think it's a matter of them not understanding the different visual cues, requiring a post like this to lay it out there, but just an issue of whether they feel the visual cues are strong enough for their own liking.

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

@TruthTellah: I don't see how the switching of the knife position can be considered subtle given that it also has a rather stylistic animation. I think the guys just completely misunderstood how the stealth works in this game. All the cue does is indicate that now you are in crouch position. Being in that position doesn't mean you are hidden. For that the game has ground covers and vertical ledges and Dark Vision. Not to mention your own wits. For being hidden the game teaches you very early on and quite clearly that if you are behind cover and/or crouching then you are ok. As long as their line of sight is broken then you are golden.

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah: I don't see how the switching of the knife position can be considered subtle given that it also has a rather stylistic animation. I think the guys just completely misunderstood how the stealth works in this game. All the cue does is indicate that now you are in crouch position. Being in that position doesn't mean you are hidden. For that the game has ground covers and vertical ledges and Dark Vision. Not to mention your own wits. For being hidden the game teaches you very early on and quite clearly that if you are behind cover and/or crouching then you are ok. As long as their line of sight is broken then you are golden.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, but for them, it's too subtle. I don't think they're necessarily alone in that impression either. So, it isn't a matter of them not getting it; they just think it should be more obvious. Perhaps it's perfectly clear to you, but that isn't the case for everyone enjoying the game.

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

To that I will agree but you do have a bone shard that negates the movement penalty. However, I have yet to play a stealth game that had a visual cue for crouching.

As far as sneaking the game wants you to rely on your wits to tell if you are hidden or not and they give you more then enough tools to figure that one. It's up to you whether or not you choose to use them.

I feel like this argument is wandering into the "Should a game handhold you or not" territory.

@Nightriff said:

I learned that how to tell based on how he holds the knife, I thought that was easy enough.

Yeah same.. I'd occasionally have to hit the sneak button and watch the blade if I wasn't paying attention

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah: I don't see how the switching of the knife position can be considered subtle given that it also has a rather stylistic animation. I think the guys just completely misunderstood how the stealth works in this game. All the cue does is indicate that now you are in crouch position. Being in that position doesn't mean you are hidden. For that the game has ground covers and vertical ledges and Dark Vision. Not to mention your own wits. For being hidden the game teaches you very early on and quite clearly that if you are behind cover and/or crouching then you are ok. As long as their line of sight is broken then you are golden.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, but for them, it's too subtle. I don't think they're necessarily alone in that impression either. So, it isn't a matter of them not getting it; they just think it should be more obvious. Perhaps it's perfectly clear to you, but that isn't the case for everyone enjoying the game.

Probably. Personally I don't see the need to have a "hidden" cue when you are either crouching behind a pile of crates or perched on top of a street lamp.

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time. Last Bombcast's comments on Xcom and to a lesser degree Dishonored just drive that point home once more. Xcom's overly long tutorial shows the player satellite launching and you can see the income increase, introduces base construction, etc. Completely forgetting a game teaching it's mechanics and then blaming the game is like their MO at this point. Dishonored has a crouch animation and stance difference as subtle as a truck hitting you in the face.

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah: I don't see how the switching of the knife position can be considered subtle given that it also has a rather stylistic animation. I think the guys just completely misunderstood how the stealth works in this game. All the cue does is indicate that now you are in crouch position. Being in that position doesn't mean you are hidden. For that the game has ground covers and vertical ledges and Dark Vision. Not to mention your own wits. For being hidden the game teaches you very early on and quite clearly that if you are behind cover and/or crouching then you are ok. As long as their line of sight is broken then you are golden.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, but for them, it's too subtle. I don't think they're necessarily alone in that impression either. So, it isn't a matter of them not getting it; they just think it should be more obvious. Perhaps it's perfectly clear to you, but that isn't the case for everyone enjoying the game.

Probably. Personally I don't see the need to have a "hidden" cue when you are either crouching behind a pile of crates or perched on top of a street lamp.

Mhm. That's a fair preference, and perhaps the developer preferred that, as well. It's reasonable that some might feel otherwise. Though, even with such a small gripe, few regard it as a big detractor. It's maybe a mild annoyance for some, but whether you think it's always apparent enough or not, most will still credit the game for its overall impressive experience and fantastic take on stealth gameplay. :)

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah: I don't see how the switching of the knife position can be considered subtle given that it also has a rather stylistic animation. I think the guys just completely misunderstood how the stealth works in this game. All the cue does is indicate that now you are in crouch position. Being in that position doesn't mean you are hidden. For that the game has ground covers and vertical ledges and Dark Vision. Not to mention your own wits. For being hidden the game teaches you very early on and quite clearly that if you are behind cover and/or crouching then you are ok. As long as their line of sight is broken then you are golden.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, but for them, it's too subtle. I don't think they're necessarily alone in that impression either. So, it isn't a matter of them not getting it; they just think it should be more obvious. Perhaps it's perfectly clear to you, but that isn't the case for everyone enjoying the game.

Probably. Personally I don't see the need to have a "hidden" cue when you are either crouching behind a pile of crates or perched on top of a street lamp.

Mhm. That's a fair preference, and perhaps the developer preferred that, as well. It's reasonable that some might feel otherwise. Though, even with such a small gripe, few regard it as a big detractor. It's maybe a mild annoyance for some, but whether you think it's always apparent enough or not, most will still credit the game for its overall impressive experience and fantastic take on stealth gameplay. :)

I will fully agree to that.

Yeah I had a hard time wrapping my head around Brad's complaint.

Also there's Vinny complaining that he can't see people around corners when there's a power that costs 1 rune that allows you to do exactly that.

@august said:

Yeah I had a hard time wrapping my head around Brad's complaint.

Also there's Vinny complaining that he can't see people around corners when there's a power that costs 1 rune that allows you to do exactly that.

Not to mention that you can freely lean out of a corner without them seeing you (since you're completely hidden so long as your body is behind the corner.)

Never had a problem with this, even with the icon disabled in the bottom left. If I don't have my weapon drawn, I can just tell by the vignetting border or my movement speed when nudging the stick forward. Also never had trouble with the Blink up to a ledge; it's a pretty explicit change in shape to me with the arrows.

@Tennmuerti said:

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time.

Yeah, pretty much. Everybody is going to have lapses in their powers of observation sometimes, but the GB crew's lack of attentiveness and tendency to not think can be (and I know this may come off as some kind of frustrated, hyperbolic condescension, but it's not) astounding sometimes.

Anyway, I definitely do think the visual difference between sneaking and not sneaking is not immediately apparent at a glance when you have your weapons holstered, such that I had to turn the sneaking indicator back on after initially thinking I would prefer to be without it.

Part of the issue is that there's not much height difference between the two, so you can't just tell from the angle of incidence from the ground. There's no body viewmodel like in Dark Messiah, so you can't use that for reference, either. And in low or moderate brightness areas, the vignetting while sneaking isn't as noticeable. So you basically have to train yourself to look toward the sneak indicator if you don't have your weapons out, which works fine, but I don't think it's necessarily preferable.

Personally, I preferred how sneaking worked and how it was represented in Dark Messiah compared to Dishonored, but it's really not a problem at all.

@mordukai said:

@Aegon said:

Send them an email. THEY MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR INCOMPETENCE...OR IGNORANCE. WHICHEVER ONE IS MORE APPROPRIATE.

My post mentioned nothing of incompetence or ignorance, merely an oversight by them. I don't understand your rather pissy response but I came to terms with this sort of hero worship that goes on here. The second someone offers a correction or criticism of any sort toward the crew then the defense force leaps in to save the day. Offer something more constructive next time and please press your Caps Lock. Nice attempt at trolling though.

I....thought he was actually being serious. But either way if someone emails the bombcast email they'll probably address it, they've done it before.

I also wanted to mention that the sneak position actually becomes obsolete and turns into just a crouch once you get the silent movement upgrades, so at that point you'd essentially always be in stealth mode, even when running.

That was one of the first thing I noticed and really liked that they did that.

Sneaky knife holding!

Playing the game sans HUD is the way to go.

How is it hard to tell? The corners of the screen go dark when you are crouched.

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

By default there is a indicator in the lower left when you are sneaking that shows a person hunched...

I just never got the point of removing UI elements for "immersion". Games aren't movies nor will they be, just give me as much pertinent info as possible, in the simplest way possible. If the sneak mode is conveyed by a little image of a man crouching, I'm not pulled out of the game, I'm just glad it's clearly marked off.

They get hung up on so many trivial things it's annoying and goes on and on about it.

@mosdl said:

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

By default there is a indicator in the lower left when you are sneaking that shows a person hunched...

I don't know how I missed that. It's pretty big too!

@mordukai said:

To that I will agree but you do have a bone shard that negates the movement penalty. However, I have yet to play a stealth game that had a visual cue for crouching.

Usually in stealth games your point of view is lowered enough that you can't miss that you're crouching, whereas in this game it's barely lowered at all. The sneak icon I didn't notice means that's a non-issue though.

There's also an icon that indicates it too, isn't there?

@MikkaQ said:

I just never got the point of removing UI elements for "immersion". Games aren't movies nor will they be, just give me as much pertinent info as possible, in the simplest way possible. If the sneak mode is conveyed by a little image of a man crouching, I'm not pulled out of the game, I'm just glad it's clearly marked off.

I turned off the compass and objective markers in Skyrim and the objective markers in this game, it makes exploration and discovery a lot more fun.

@Tennmuerti said:

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time. Last Bombcast's comments on Xcom and to a lesser degree Dishonored just drive that point home once more. Xcom's overly long tutorial shows the player satellite launching and you can see the income increase, introduces base construction, etc. Completely forgetting a game teaching it's mechanics and then blaming the game is like their MO at this point. Dishonored has a crouch animation and stance difference as subtle as a truck hitting you in the face.

This

I don't get what is being said here. yes he is clearly in a different stance but I bet it he able to be seen there. Brad was complaining that when you are totally hidden there they show it with an icon not contexuizle in the environment like in Mark of the Ninja or Chronicles of Riddick,

@Shirogane said:

@mordukai said:

@Aegon said:

Send them an email. THEY MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR INCOMPETENCE...OR IGNORANCE. WHICHEVER ONE IS MORE APPROPRIATE.

My post mentioned nothing of incompetence or ignorance, merely an oversight by them. I don't understand your rather pissy response but I came to terms with this sort of hero worship that goes on here. The second someone offers a correction or criticism of any sort toward the crew then the defense force leaps in to save the day. Offer something more constructive next time and please press your Caps Lock. Nice attempt at trolling though.

I....thought he was actually being serious. But either way if someone emails the bombcast email they'll probably address it, they've done it before.

I also wanted to mention that the sneak position actually becomes obsolete and turns into just a crouch once you get the silent movement upgrades, so at that point you'd essentially always be in stealth mode, even when running.

I was actually being serious. Not serious to the point of thinking they're actually ignorant, but serious in that I want to hear their response to an email. Waiting for an apology.

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

@ImmortalSaiyan: That's because the game treats you as a thinking human being and let you draw your own conclusion that when you are being cover or perched up on a higher vintage point then you are hidden. Why would you need an indicator to tell you that you are hidden when behind cover or on a higher vintage point ? How much hand holding does one person needs?

As I've said before. I have a feeling the GB crew completely misunderstood how stealth works in this game. This is partly due to the game not really explaining that shadows are only good from a distance.

@kishinfoulux said:

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I also happen to disagree with the crew, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

For me, a lot of the tension and excitement comes from not knowing if my hiding spot will be good enough, holding my breath while the guard walks by inches away. If the screen tinged blue and I could relax knowing I was essentially invisible it would take some of the fun out for me.

Mark of the Ninja and Riddick are much more mechanical and binary in that regard, and that's fine for those games, but I don't think every game has to be like that.

@mordukai: I'm with you on this.

@Scrawnto said:

@kishinfoulux said:

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I also happen to disagree with the crew, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

For me, a lot of the tension and excitement comes from not knowing if my hiding spot will be good enough, holding my breath while the guard walks by inches away. If the screen tinged blue and I could relax knowing I was essentially invisible it would take some of the fun out for me.

Mark of the Ninja and Riddick are much more mechanical and binary in that regard, and that's fine for those games, but I don't think every game has to be like that.

@mordukai: I'm with you on this.

I think you hit the nail on the head here regarding the tension of knowing whether or not you are properly hidden from any particular enemy. This is really important to the stealth in Dishonored.

@Scrawnto said:

@kishinfoulux said:

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I also happen to disagree with the crew, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

For me, a lot of the tension and excitement comes from not knowing if my hiding spot will be good enough, holding my breath while the guard walks by inches away. If the screen tinged blue and I could relax knowing I was essentially invisible it would take some of the fun out for me.

Mark of the Ninja and Riddick are much more mechanical and binary in that regard, and that's fine for those games, but I don't think every game has to be like that.

@mordukai: I'm with you on this.

I haven't played Dishonoured but do agree with you. I don't like this new focus on the "binary" system of stealth where if you satisfy this one requirement then you are pretty much completely safe. It doesn't solve the problem stealth games supposedly had where you were never sure if your plan was going to work and so reloading was a core part of the game, it just eliminates that problem and in doing so eliminates a lot of what I loved about stuff like old splinter cell.

@JackOhara said:

@Scrawnto said:

@kishinfoulux said:

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I also happen to disagree with the crew, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

For me, a lot of the tension and excitement comes from not knowing if my hiding spot will be good enough, holding my breath while the guard walks by inches away. If the screen tinged blue and I could relax knowing I was essentially invisible it would take some of the fun out for me.

Mark of the Ninja and Riddick are much more mechanical and binary in that regard, and that's fine for those games, but I don't think every game has to be like that.

@mordukai: I'm with you on this.

I think you hit the nail on the head here regarding the tension of knowing whether or not you are properly hidden from any particular enemy. This is really important to the stealth in Dishonored.

All exactly this.

I've only played through the first mission of Dishonored so I'm not exactly an expert, but it seems like the way the stealth works is simply different from other stealth games. It seems like in Dishonored if your in someone's line-of-sight, regardless of how visible you are, then you fucked up. It just seems like a game about using your environment to avoid the guards' line-of-sight entirely, rather than about sneaking through the shadows. So the idea of communicating to the player how visible they are seems to go against the entire design philosophy of the game.

I would imagine this is something Brad would understand if he simply spent more time with the game, but then again playing a game for an hour, making false assumptions about the game, then criticizing a game based on those false assumptions is what Brad does best.

"Our stealth model is mostly based on enemy view cones and occlusion. Darkness matters at a significant distance, making you more hidden. Up close, the enemies facing and field of vision matters most. (Stay behind them or behind something that blocks their view."- From Harvey Smith's blog

@mordukai said:

@ImmortalSaiyan: I have a feeling the GB crew completely misunderstood how stealth works in this game. This is partly due to the game not really explaining that shadows are only good from a distance.

The game does pop up a tutorial screen that says (and illustrates) exactly that :O)

I really would have liked a more blatant stealth indicator.