An interesting look at why video games (Probably) are not art

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Jayge_

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#2  Edited By Jayge_

No Caption Provided













This is my response to these people/threads now. There are many things that I disagree with in that article that I'm too lazy to address, so I'll just leave with the question "If this guy were writing this article in 1930, would he think 'cinema' was art?"
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Sarnecki

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#3  Edited By Sarnecki

Clearly you didn't bother to read the article...  Cinema has proven itself to be art. There are things in Cinema you're only ever going to find in Cinema. 

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Jayge_

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#4  Edited By Jayge_
Sarnecki said:
"Clearly you didn't bother to read the article...  Cinema has proven itself to be art. There are things in Cinema you're only ever going to find in Cinema.  "
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. I read the article. My question was, if he were writing the article in 1930, would he consider 'cinema' art? There are things in videogames that you will only ever find in videogames. You make bizzare unrelated statements.
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Sarnecki

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#5  Edited By Sarnecki

There's no way you actually read the article if you're trying to argue this to me right now.

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Jayge_

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#6  Edited By Jayge_
Sarnecki said:
"There's no way you actually read the article if you're trying to argue this to me right now."
I'm not trying to argue anything with you. I read the article. I'm not interested in the article. It was pointless. The only thing I am interested in is the question I posed. Is that so tough for you to comprehend?
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penguindust

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#7  Edited By penguindust

"But we still haven't defined art. And honestly, we're not going to do so here."

I stopped reading the article at this point because if I don't know how he defines "Art" then whether video game are or aren't art can't be argued because art itself is undefined.  It's like saying Jayge is smart.  Is he "book smart", "common sense smart", "wise-ass smart", "deep thinking smart", "smart in comparison to his friends" or "smart in comparison to Nobel Prize winners"?  All of the above, none of the above, some of the above...with no common acceptance of what smart means, any and all of the choices are possible. 

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart said, to paraphrase, "I don't know what obscenity is, but I know it when I see it."  The same can be said of art.  Roger Ebert (who's film opinions I respect) has an understanding of art that is particular to him.  I may not have that same understanding, and may accept other things as art and dismiss other things as well.  If the author of the article doesn't want to define art from his viewpoint, then everything he says about video games as art (or not) has no context and no value.

I don't know if video games are art.  Frankly, I don't care if they are or aren't. But if someone is going to make the argument in either direction, they better lay down the ground rules before making their case.

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Sarnecki

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#8  Edited By Sarnecki

@ Jayge

"Film as a form, not as a specific example. FIrst of all, BIRTH OF A NATION wouldn't be the movie you want to use, but rather something by Eisenstein, who invented film language. Second, film has a language all its own - it does things no other medium can do. That's what makes it its own artform. It takes elements of writing and acting and photography and adds them together in its own way and then further creates its own things. There are aspects of narrative that can only be truly acheived in cinema. Comic books come closest, but even they have their own unique language that qualifies them as more than just a copy of film.

Second, a game has no real interactive element. You can't actually play a game to a conclusion that hasn't been scripted out in advance. Video games are the movie CLUE. But further, interactivity takes away from art, which is a statement by an artist. If you're going to use interactivity as the aspect that sets it apart, you've just said that games are a tool - that the art isn't created until you're done playing. Video games are like paintbrushes - but what they end up making is another kind of movie."

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Jayge_

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#9  Edited By Jayge_

You still completely misunderstand the point of my question. Now this is pointless too. Thread exit.

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Sarnecki

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#10  Edited By Sarnecki

Penguin, not to bag on you man...  But reading the article isn't going to hurt.  You don't have to be touchy about this, it's not pulling teeth.  He defines why video games are not art inside and out in the actual article, and why various things work the way they do as an artform. 

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angelkanarias

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#11  Edited By angelkanarias
I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. 
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Snipzor

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#12  Edited By Snipzor

Yeah I won't bother with this, especially since games like Killer7 exist with no mention here. If there isn't one single thing in that game that doesn't constitute as visual/audio/literary art, then art sucks.

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angelkanarias

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#13  Edited By angelkanarias
Snipzor said:
"Yeah I won't bother with this, especially since games like Killer7 exist with no mention here. If there isn't one single thing in that game that doesn't constitute as visual/audio/literary art, then art sucks."
not every single videogame is art. If I shit on a paper I don't think that would be art.
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Sarnecki

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#14  Edited By Sarnecki

Listen...  The arguement is not that video games cannot be art.  Shadow, Killere 7, they all have beautiful visual, or cinematic art.  The arguement is video games cannot be an art form.  Assuming the definition of an art form is that it brings something new to the table that no other art form before it could achieve.  He believes that games are essentially movies, yes, an artform.  But not their own art form, cinemas art form.  Because interactive elements have been around for film and comic books etc. for a long long time, his arguement is that games don't bring anything new to the table that allow them to be called an artform.

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JudgeDread

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#15  Edited By JudgeDread
Sarnecki said:
"

Listen...  The arguement is not that video games cannot be art.  Shadow, Killere 7, they all have beautiful visual, or cinematic art.  The arguement is video games cannot be an art form.  Assuming the definition of an art form is that it brings something new to the table that no other art form before it could achieve.  He believes that games are essentially movies, yes, an artform.  But not their own art form, cinemas art form.  Because interactive elements have been around for film and comic books etc. for a long long time, his arguement is that games don't bring anything new to the table that allow them to be called an artform.

"
that is just stupid
  


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angelkanarias

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#16  Edited By angelkanarias
Sarnecki said:
"

Listen...  The arguement is not that video games cannot be art.  Shadow, Killere 7, they all have beautiful visual, or cinematic art.  The arguement is video games cannot be an art form.  Assuming the definition of an art form is that it brings something new to the table that no other art form before it could achieve.  He believes that games are essentially movies, yes, an artform.  But not their own art form, cinemas art form.  Because interactive elements have been around for film and comic books etc. for a long long time, his arguement is that games don't bring anything new to the table that allow them to be called an artform.

"
Well then the whole point is stupid. You can't be as interactive in a movie as in videogames or as interactive in comics as on videogames. Can you take decisions in a movie?, no, all is totally predefined. You have more and more liberty in videogames and have a totally bigger level of deepness as you control your own character.
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Sarnecki

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#17  Edited By Sarnecki

Video games are totally and utterly predefined.  There might be two or three endings but it's predefined.

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angelkanarias

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#18  Edited By angelkanarias
Sarnecki said:
"Video games are totally and utterly predefined.  There might be two or three endings but it's predefined."
you can have differen perspectives on the same event and control you charater as I said. You can interact with the freaking scene, in a WWII movie you just sit back and watch, here you throw the freaking grenades shoot the freaking people and watch on your own way the predefined scenes that will appear, such as in HL2 when a bridge falls or the G-man appears. I don't imagine myself getting excited on a movie beacause I see this guy called G-man appearing up somewhere. And in videogames I feel I am in the place where I play at, when in a movie you are just god and watch what happens.
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Icemael

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#19  Edited By Icemael
Sarnecki said:
"Video games are totally and utterly predefined.  There might be two or three endings but it's predefined."
While video games contain stuff that's predefined, there are many parts that aren't. Say I meet a bunch of enemies. How should I deal with them?. Use magic? Slash them? Ignore them and run? The choice is mine, and therefore it's interactive. In a comic book or a movie, everything is predefined. I can't choose whether Batman should kick a guy in a face, punch him or throw his Batarang, can I?
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angelkanarias

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#20  Edited By angelkanarias

Just as another example. On a sherlock holmes movie, you just watch how he freaking investigates, but in a videogame, you investigate and have your own conclusions.

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Sarnecki

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#21  Edited By Sarnecki

Interactivity in art has existed LONG before video games.

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Icemael

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#22  Edited By Icemael
Sarnecki said:
"Interactivity in art has existed LONG before video games."
I'm sure this is true, but please give me an example to work with.
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JudgeDread

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#23  Edited By JudgeDread

interactivity in theatre has existed LONG before cinema

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angelkanarias

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#24  Edited By angelkanarias
JudgeDread said:
"interactivity in theatre has existed LONG before cinema"
nice one
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Sarnecki

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#25  Edited By Sarnecki

Why does that matter?

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Sarnecki

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#26  Edited By Sarnecki

Interactivity is not what makes Cinema an art form.  Read the damn article.

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angelkanarias

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#27  Edited By angelkanarias

Then I think interactivity isn't everything which makes videogames an art. I quote myself 


''I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. '' Videogames have their own way of trasmiting feelings.

End of story. 
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Icemael

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#28  Edited By Icemael
angelkanarias said:
"Then I think interactivity isn't everything which makes videogames an art. I quote myself 

''I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. ''
That's a pretty bad definition of art, because everything transmits feelings. For example, if you see a lion and it makes you scared, does that mean the lion is art? And if you feel pain when cut with a knife, does that mean the knife is art?
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Sarnecki

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#29  Edited By Sarnecki

Blowing up a bus full of people in the Middle East also transmits a feeling.  That defintion cannot work because it's possibly the broadest possible defintion of art.

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crunchUK

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#30  Edited By crunchUK

For art to be art it has to have no purpose other than itself.

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HombreGato

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#31  Edited By HombreGato

I can't understand why anyone contributed to this thread after the first reply

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angelkanarias

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#32  Edited By angelkanarias
Icemael said:
"angelkanarias said:
"Then I think interactivity isn't everything which makes videogames an art. I quote myself 

''I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. ''
That's a pretty bad definition of art, because everything transmits feelings. For example, if you see a lion and it makes you scared, does that mean the lion is art? And if you feel pain when cut with a knife, does that mean the knife is art?
"
The authors an directors try to make you feel something through the movie or whatever. I am not talking about real life, I am talking about them trying to make you feel something through their piece of art.
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Icemael

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#33  Edited By Icemael
angelkanarias said:
"Icemael said:
"angelkanarias said:
"Then I think interactivity isn't everything which makes videogames an art. I quote myself 

''I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. ''
That's a pretty bad definition of art, because everything transmits feelings. For example, if you see a lion and it makes you scared, does that mean the lion is art? And if you feel pain when cut with a knife, does that mean the knife is art?
"
A movie has a certain feeling it wants to transmit to you, if it achieves to do so, then is art. I mean it is art if it achieves to do it through this media, not in real life. 
"
What exactly is "this media"? If a lion wants to scare you by roaring, then the media is sound. That makes it art using your logic.
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Sarnecki

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#34  Edited By Sarnecki

You can't just apply art to "media" because then it's an incredibly complicated arguement, even more so than now.

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angelkanarias

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#35  Edited By angelkanarias
Icemael said:
"angelkanarias said:
"Icemael said:
"angelkanarias said:
"Then I think interactivity isn't everything which makes videogames an art. I quote myself 

''I define art as something which transmits a feeling. There is music which transmit feelings. There are movies which tranmit feelings. There are drawings which transmit feelings. And there are videogames which transmit feelings. ''
That's a pretty bad definition of art, because everything transmits feelings. For example, if you see a lion and it makes you scared, does that mean the lion is art? And if you feel pain when cut with a knife, does that mean the knife is art?
"
A movie has a certain feeling it wants to transmit to you, if it achieves to do so, then is art. I mean it is art if it achieves to do it through this media, not in real life. 
"
What exactly is "this media"? If a lion wants to scare you by roaring, then the media is sound. That makes it art using your logic.
"
common... media=movies, games etc...
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angelkanarias

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#36  Edited By angelkanarias

I can use piece of art if it makes you comftorble.

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Icemael

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#37  Edited By Icemael
angelkanarias said:
"Icemael said:
"angelkanarias said:
A movie has a certain feeling it wants to transmit to you, if it achieves to do so, then is art. I mean it is art if it achieves to do it through this media, not in real life. "
What exactly is "this media"? If a lion wants to scare you by roaring, then the media is sound. That makes it art using your logic.
"
media=movies, games etc...
"
But sound is just as valid a media as games or movies, no? The lion wants to deliver the feeling fear, and does so through the media sound.
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angelkanarias

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#38  Edited By angelkanarias
angelkanarias said:
"I can use piece of art if it makes you comftorble."

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angelkanarias

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#39  Edited By angelkanarias

This is starting to be stupid

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strangeling

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#40  Edited By strangeling
"...with this point we can say A video game is art without allowing the statement 'video games are art.'"

So he says right there in his article that a video game can be art.
With his reasoning the statement 'paintings are art' is also invalid, because just using paint to create a picture does not deem that picture art.



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deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5

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The article relies very heavily on arbitrary distinctions to make its point. I was impressed with his attempt to not make "value judgments", but from his references to "high art" among other things, I get the feeling that he's merely trying desperately to find some way to logically validate his opinions, and failing miserably.

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Red

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#42  Edited By Red

Games as art is something on a game-by-game basis.


Is Rock Revolution art? No. Is Shadow of the Colossus? Probably.

Actually, art in general is a case by case basis.

I would not call Soulja Boy art in any way.
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strangeling

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#43  Edited By strangeling
Bellum said:
"The article relies very heavily on arbitrary distinctions to make its point. I was impressed with his attempt to not make "value judgments", but from his references to "high art" among other things, I get the feeling that he's merely trying desperately to find some way to logically validate his opinions, and failing miserably. "
In the end, he can't help interjecting his value judgement:
"It is important for me to finally interject my value judgment here on narrative games as cinema. I think they're all various levels of bad art."
And even there he refers to them as art.
Maybe he's referring to them as a subset of cinema (like the examples he stated elsewhere), but that effectively makes them art by his reasoning.

I really don't get his article.



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iamjohn

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#44  Edited By iamjohn
crunchUK said:
"For art to be art it has to have no purpose other than itself."
That's a abject lie.  Most of the successful art that is still with us spawned out of commerce.  Bach, Mozart, Rembrandt, Michaelangelo - ALL of these people were under commission or in the service of some lord of royalty for their services.  True, oftentimes the best art is that which doesn't spawn out of commerce, but art and commerce go hand-in-hand more often than you want to believe.
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Sarnecki

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#45  Edited By Sarnecki

That is true.  Film is an artform but it's an artform largely based on commerce.

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penguindust

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#46  Edited By penguindust

Well, I went back and read the whole article and that's five minutes of my life I'll never get back.  Anyway, I came away more confused with what the author considers art than before.  His separation of art and high art and art with a capital "A" defined as something different than good or bad art was baffling.  But, on to a few points...

"The carved chess pieces are art, the actual playing of the game of chess is not"
  Okay, I can see the point here.  It's like saying the play is art, the performance of the play is art, the watching of the play is not art.  Of course, then what of interactive theater and performance art that invites the audience to participate in order for the creation to exist.  Well, maybe under those circumstances, the audience becomes the one of the performers just as valid as any actor on stage. Their interaction within the guidelines of the artist creates something immediate.   But, then couldn't the player in a video game also be considered a performer just as an audience member could be considered a performer in a performance piece?  But, of course, interactivity isn't art.  Just as the rules of a baseball game are not intended to communicate ideas or feelings, just to facilitate play, then interactivity must be only a means to an end. I assume, in the case of video games that interactivity must be required to achieve "play".  But what happens when "play" produces something else?  Such as storytelling?  So can storytelling be considered an art form?  According to the National Endowment of the Art it is. 

"Movies are the same thing, you say. It's photography and music and acting and writing mixed together. Close! Cinema is an art form in and of itself not because it's an aggregation of other art forms but because it brings something special to the table: editing."  Hmm, if editing is the only thing that defines film as unique from other art forms then television journalism would also be considered art.  Maybe it is, but I wonder if the author would accept that possibility or exclude it because journalism is utilitarian.  Although, here again, television journalism does contain storytelling.

"How about Tetris? Or Rock Band? Or Geometry Wars Evolved? All of these games have artful design, but are they art?"  Good question and one that reminds me of a similar question that has been knocking around "serious" art circles for decades now.  What are the differences between fine art and illustration?  One definition is that illustration is beholden to the product or story it is trying to tell over the emotional impact it evokes while fine art assumes freedom of expression as its primary purpose.  Of course, if we apply this definition to films, then with the exception of experimental art films, all movies wouldn't be considered high art either.  And then, what happens to games like Tetris or Geometry Wars which have no story to limit them?  Well, then I guess the "play" argument resurfaces...and was their ever any intent to invoke an emotional impact on the player to begin with?  Probably not in any of those games, but I'm not so sure about Flower.  But then again, according to the author, it is just artistic in design...like a building by Frank Lloyd Wright.

"It is important for me to finally interject my value judgment here on narrative games as cinema. I think they're all various levels of bad art. I've never played a video game that was as good as even a mediocre movie, or a fairly readable book."  I think what he's saying is that all video games have bad stories, bad dialog and bad acting.  Well, I can't argue with this point because it's purely subjective.  From my own personal basis, I've encountered several games with better stories than some movies I've seen, but that just me.

"Now, I'm a lifelong video game player, but it's possible that I've missed something truly unique about video games in all those hours spent playing them."  I find this an interesting admission because it alludes to the intangible. I believe it can be described as a way of seeing.  Perceptions of emotionality imparted from the artist to the audience.  After reading the article, it seems the author has very defined beliefs of what art is in his view.  Those views are categorized, compartmentalized and distinct from each other according to the medium.  But, video games have additional elements that the author can not identify or at least not to his satisfaction.  So, what if that intangible element that is undefined by the author is what is unique in video games?  What if that element is what makes them a potential art form?

But like I said earlier, I'm not personally interested in whether or not video games are considered art, however I am enthralled with the conversation of "what is art?"  And that is why I took such a negative early response to the article.  Stating an unwillingness to define art as he did at one point completely removed any interest I had in the article because that definition is what I find intriguing.  However, over the course of the telling, he did reveal some things; confused and jumbled as they were which over all could be considered a view point. 



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Sarnecki

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#47  Edited By Sarnecki

Yes, I'm sorry I couldn't articulate that earlier.  He doesn't define art, but by the end his viewpoint is fairly clear and defined, regardless if you agree with it or not.

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Video_Game_King

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#48  Edited By Video_Game_King
Jayge said:
If this guy were writing this article in 1930, would he think 'cinema' was art?
He wouldn't. People resist new mediums for some weird reason. Cinema was called crap and not as good as the traditional theater, yet theater was called immoral and evil back in Shakespeare's time. I think we all have personal examples of games being art. Here'smine.
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Sarnecki

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#49  Edited By Sarnecki

He defends well against the idea that video games are simply too young to be art.

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Video_Game_King

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#50  Edited By Video_Game_King
Sarnecki said:
"He defends well against the idea that video games are simply too young to be art."
Why is age a factor? By that logic, I could dismiss a lot of modern works of art due to their age. Both urinals and Christ in a glass of urine are considered art; what is it about video games that places them below these pieces of "art?"