Is Mr. Pink Justified in Refusing to Tip?

So in america, do waitresses actually get paid under the legal minium wage?! If so thats pretty messed up.

I always tip when eating out, though I don't really get it. No one else gets tipped for doing their job correctly, no matter how shitty it is.

@hbkdx12 said:

@frankfartmouth said:

@JazGalaxy:

Waiting tables is a "real" job, a pretty goddamn hard, thankless, and stressful job as a matter of fact, one that almost every single person in the industry does out of necessity, not because they're lazy or trying to work some scam like you say. I've worked in the restaurant business my whole life, and I've never encountered someone who does it for the reasons you say. Servers don't typically make a lot of money, they make decent money for the hours they work which are almost invariably part time but extremely flexible. And that's the reason most people do it: because they are trying to get into something else but it's not a snap of a finger thing like you make it out and the schedule flexibility allows them to go to school, study, and still tend to family needs and the such. It's a means to an end. Most people hate doing it because you're treated like a dog by a lot of customers who think they're better than you because you're a server and they're not .

So I think I need to bring Mr. White into this and say, "You don't know what you're talking about." And neither do any of the people who are talking about server wages or the mandatory tip thing. I get paid 2.40 an hour by the restaurant. That's not below minimum wage, it's barely anything. In America, you are a major dick if you leave anything below 10% on competent service, a little cheap if you leave anything below 15, and generous if you go up to 20. On exceptional service, you shouldn't go below 17 or 18 but 20 is the standard. You don't tip only when the service is phenomenal.

I would never suggest to anyone, server or not, that serving isn't a real job so I'm not touching that but this two tiered level of tipping based on performance is, with all due respect to you and any other servers, just absolute BS to me. Tipping someone who ISN"T giving you phenomenal service suggests that, at best, they're doing the job that they were hired to do. They're doing exactly what their job entails; no more no less and their wage is meant to be compensation as such regardless of how shitty.

Yeah but, what is phenomenal service when you are waiting tables? Bringing your food to you as soon as it's done? Refilling your drink before it gets halfway? Being friendly with the customers? Isn't all of that expected anyway? So by your logic, when are you ever suppose to tip?

Anyone who has an opinion about not tipping really hasn't worked a job that relies on tips.I think Daniel Tosh said it best: Everyone should have to wait tables for at least one year of their lives, so they realize their ranch dressing isn't really that fucking important.

I am fascinated by the economics behind this tipping thing. How much does a mid priced garlic stake go for (with soda)in the USA and how much of it is added taxes?

@frankfartmouth said:

@JazGalaxy:

Waiting tables is a "real" job, a pretty goddamn hard, thankless, and stressful job as a matter of fact, one that almost every single person in the industry does out of necessity, not because they're lazy or trying to work some scam like you say. I've worked in the restaurant business my whole life, and I've never encountered someone who does it for the reasons you say. Servers don't typically make a lot of money, they make decent money for the hours they work which are almost invariably part time but extremely flexible. And that's the reason most people do it: because they are trying to get into something else but it's not a snap of a finger thing like you make it out and the schedule flexibility allows them to go to school, study, and still tend to family needs and the such. It's a means to an end. Most people hate doing it because you're treated like a dog by a lot of customers who think they're better than you because you're a server and they're not .

So I think I need to bring Mr. White into this and say, "You don't know what you're talking about." And neither do any of the people who are talking about server wages or the mandatory tip thing. I get paid 2.40 an hour by the restaurant. That's not below minimum wage, it's barely anything. In America, you are a major dick if you leave anything below 10% on competent service, a little cheap if you leave anything below 15, and generous if you go up to 20. On exceptional service, you shouldn't go below 17 or 18 but 20 is the standard. You don't tip only when the service is phenomenal.

I'm not trying to insult you, but when a job is not an agreed upon service for an agreed upon wage, it is NOT a real job. The fact that the job is hard IN NO WAY enters into the equation. IT is not the customer's fault that servers entered into a contract that was ridiculous from the outset. I get your saying that the job is tough. I get your saying that the hours are flexible. I get your saying that it allows you to work part time.

What does any of that have to do with the customer?

It seems like this thread appears every so often. Like Brigadoon.

Nah.

Next question.

I don't tip from any kind of philosophical reason like many people claim to (And I'd wager they have the same reason I do)

I just don't have enough disposeable income to supplement additional money on top of the money I already payed.

Yeah, I can afford to eat out, but it's a harsh economical climate, and I don't want to pay any more than I already have to. I wish everyone else would admit that.

Strange timing. Just very recently rewatched Reservoir Dogs. One of Buscemi's best roles.

No, he's just a motherfucker.

Tipping is silly. If it's an exceptional meal I would tip if it went to the chef, I'm not going to tip the person that is just bringing the food out, a lot of the time they seem really fake and forced too which is quite irritating.

mmmmm... that is a tasty burger

I'm not a fucking cunthole so I tip.

I've hated the idea of tipping every time I've been to America.

I do it out of decency, but it's incredibly stupid. Customers shouldn't be the ones paying their salary.

Tipping is the only reason waiters have any motivation to actually provide some service beyond what's required of them.

Tip. The food you paid for costs what it costs because the operating costs of the restaurant have been decreased thanks to the waiters' lower wages. You are paying an artificially deflated price, which can only be sustained so long as we maintain some semblance of voluntary, merit-based compensation for the waiters. It's true that paying some tip is expected, but the amount in that tip can be highly variable. I had a waitress who charged me for four too many beers, I asked her to identify who had bought them, and she couldn't, but wouldn't negotiate the bill. That's a no tip situation. I get a server who only visits the table 3 times and takes so long that I actually think of getting up to hunt for someone, that's 10%. If they do an ordinary job, 15%, and so on up to like 25% for amazing service. That's 150% what they would have gotten if they had been lousy. Do you want to try and tell me that it would somehow be a fairer system if the waiter got paid the same amount in all of the above circumstances?

I used to think like Mr. Pink, but then I got a real job and started making money.

Also, one of the least talked about perks of being a good tipper - the staff knows you and will do their damnedest to treat you like a king. The diner I frequent for lunch (getting hungry now, thinking about it) has had my patronage for a couple of years, and I've never had a late meal, bad food, or anything to complain about. I'm not going to say it's Cheers over there, since I know the only reason I'm getting the great service I get is because I've got a reputation as a good tip. That said, I'm willing to pay for the convenience.

@hbkdx12 said:

@Landon said:

@hbkdx12 said:

@frankfartmouth said:

@JazGalaxy:

Waiting tables is a "real" job, a pretty goddamn hard, thankless, and stressful job as a matter of fact, one that almost every single person in the industry does out of necessity, not because they're lazy or trying to work some scam like you say. I've worked in the restaurant business my whole life, and I've never encountered someone who does it for the reasons you say. Servers don't typically make a lot of money, they make decent money for the hours they work which are almost invariably part time but extremely flexible. And that's the reason most people do it: because they are trying to get into something else but it's not a snap of a finger thing like you make it out and the schedule flexibility allows them to go to school, study, and still tend to family needs and the such. It's a means to an end. Most people hate doing it because you're treated like a dog by a lot of customers who think they're better than you because you're a server and they're not .

So I think I need to bring Mr. White into this and say, "You don't know what you're talking about." And neither do any of the people who are talking about server wages or the mandatory tip thing. I get paid 2.40 an hour by the restaurant. That's not below minimum wage, it's barely anything. In America, you are a major dick if you leave anything below 10% on competent service, a little cheap if you leave anything below 15, and generous if you go up to 20. On exceptional service, you shouldn't go below 17 or 18 but 20 is the standard. You don't tip only when the service is phenomenal.

I would never suggest to anyone, server or not, that serving isn't a real job so I'm not touching that but this two tiered level of tipping based on performance is, with all due respect to you and any other servers, just absolute BS to me. Tipping someone who ISN"T giving you phenomenal service suggests that, at best, they're doing the job that they were hired to do. They're doing exactly what their job entails; no more no less and their wage is meant to be compensation as such regardless of how shitty.

Yeah but, what is phenomenal service when you are waiting tables? Bringing your food to you as soon as it's done? Refilling your drink before it gets halfway? Being friendly with the customers? Isn't all of that expected anyway? So by your logic, when are you ever suppose to tip?

Anyone who has an opinion about not tipping really hasn't worked a job that relies on tips.I think Daniel Tosh said it best: Everyone should have to wait tables for at least one year of their lives, so they realize their ranch dressing isn't really that fucking important.

Of course any judgement of service is completely subjective and is going to be different for everyone but sure, lets assume that everyone expects that level of service that you just highlighted as a bare minimum. My point still stands in that the job your expected to do is the job you get paid to do. In this case that pay is extremely fuckin horrible. I'm not trying to suggest that the caveats, financial and otherwise, of being a server with the system that's in place isn't completely exploitative. But its pretty much the only industry where the customer is expected to offset that which to me is fucked up. Granted, most servers bust their fuckin ass and put up with a lot and even if the wage wasn't shitty it's still not a job that i'd want to do and for that i feel that servers should be paid accordingly...by their employers. Other than pointing the fingers at customers and the idea of tipping, what justifies employers giving servers such low pay? The only thing one could even suggest is that it helps keep the pricing of the food "low" but even then that still doesn't create a dynamic where it makes sense to leave the customer at fault When did we all buy into this is what im wondering. How is it that servers essentially decided to settle for less while customers decided to bear the brunt of that settling while the employer steps back and plays both sides of the field

I think we all bought itto it because it creeped up on everyone. I think that waiters and waitresses made a lot of money in tips over their normal wages and as a result, businesses felt they could pay less and people would still want the job because the potential was there to make a lot of money. Then, when people take the job and DON'T make a lot of money, they feel mistreated or misled. I call it a scam, and that's probably harsh, but I legitmately feel like it is. I worked outside in the 110 degree Houston weather for minimum wage and then was expected to give 1 or 2/5ths of that away to someone my own age who stood in the air conditioning and asked me to pick something off a list and wrote it down on a piece of paper. For less than 10 minutes of work, at a table of four, they made what I made in an hour. Fair or unfair, that has pemanently soured my opinion on tipping.

@Veektarius said:

Tip. The food you paid for costs what it costs because the operating costs of the restaurant have been decreased thanks to the waiters' lower wages. You are paying an artificially deflated price, which can only be sustained so long as we maintain some semblance of voluntary, merit-based compensation for the waiters. It's true that paying some tip is expected, but the amount in that tip can be highly variable. I had a waitress who charged me for four too many beers, I asked her to identify who had bought them, and she couldn't, but wouldn't negotiate the bill. That's a no tip situation. I get a server who only visits the table 3 times and takes so long that I actually think of getting up to hunt for someone, that's 10%. If they do an ordinary job, 15%, and so on up to like 25% for amazing service. That's 150% what they would have gotten if they had been lousy. Do you want to try and tell me that it would somehow be a fairer system if the waiter got paid the same amount in all of the above circumstances?

Of course they're a more fair way to handle it. IT's called the way EVERY OTHER JOB WORKS. You do poorly, you get yelled at or fired. You do an adequate job, you get to keep your job. You go above and beyond and you get promoted or a bump in wages.

in the UK the minimum wage is a law. If you do not pay your staff minimum wage you get shut the fuck DOWN. As a result, only extreamly swanky restaurants and hairdressers get tips here. Somtimes taxi drivers because you're to damn drunk for them to give you 50p change out of that 9.50 fare

@RiotBananas: @hbkdx12: Having worked in a few restaurants in the past, I've met a lot of chefs/servers who have become real skilled at doing nasty passive aggressive things to your food in a way that you'd never detect by looking at it, or even tasting it. These people tend to have good memories of who complains, and who tips poorly.

I'm not saying they're right (especially with regards to complains, but chefs can be quite temperamental), and I'm not saying you'll get sick from it, but if you don't tip and get sick on the third visit to a place.....you never know. Even if you don't wind up feeling it, I'm not sure you'd like the idea of someone spitting on your food, or dropping it on the (shall we say less then sanitary) kitchen floor, or any number of things I've seen. One man had his steak tossed on the floor, actually stepped on by the cook, and put back on his plate. He ate it with no complaints.

Any place I'm a regular at, I tip well. Don't piss off the help if you want to feel safe eating there twice. I don't care if you tip or not, but it's something to keep in mind.

@Mirado said:

@RiotBananas: @hbkdx12: Having worked in a few restaurants in the past, I've met a lot of chefs/servers who have become real skilled at doing nasty passive aggressive things to your food in a way that you'd never detect by looking at it, or even tasting it. These people tend to have good memories of who complains, and who tips poorly.

I'm not saying they're right (especially with regards to complains, but chefs can be quite temperamental), and I'm not saying you'll get sick from it, but if you don't tip and get sick on the third visit to a place.....you never know. Even if you don't wind up feeling it, I'm not sure you'd like the idea of someone spitting on your food, or dropping it on the (shall we say less then sanitary) kitchen floor, or any number of things I've seen. One man had his steak tossed on the floor, actually stepped on by the cook, and put back on his plate. He ate it with no complaints.

Any place I'm a regular at, I tip well. Don't piss off the help if you want to feel safe eating there twice. I don't care if you tip or not, but it's something to keep in mind.

and this is exactly part of the problem. Even in a world where tipping is expected, it's an incredibly ineligant process. Who is to say what is enough of a tip? it's a competely unspoken contract. I get my food spat on because I didn't leave a tip big enough for what the server felt they were entited to?

Fuck all that.

@Mirado said:

@RiotBananas: @hbkdx12: Having worked in a few restaurants in the past, I've met a lot of chefs/servers who have become real skilled at doing nasty passive aggressive things to your food in a way that you'd never detect by looking at it, or even tasting it. These people tend to have good memories of who complains, and who tips poorly.

I'm not saying they're right (especially with regards to complains, but chefs can be quite temperamental), and I'm not saying you'll get sick from it, but if you don't tip and get sick on the third visit to a place.....you never know. Even if you don't wind up feeling it, I'm not sure you'd like the idea of someone spitting on your food, or dropping it on the (shall we say less then sanitary) kitchen floor, or any number of things I've seen. One man had his steak tossed on the floor, actually stepped on by the cook, and put back on his plate. He ate it with no complaints.

Any place I'm a regular at, I tip well. Don't piss off the help if you want to feel safe eating there twice. I don't care if you tip or not, but it's something to keep in mind.

Having worked in restaurants for almost 15 years, this stuff mentioned above is extremely rare. Any restaurant owner would fire said employee immediately, and blackball them from any restaurant work in town.

Tipping is voluntary, and 99% of restaurant workers aren't trippin', because they know it all works out overall. You're going to make between 12-15%(or more sometimes)in tips on your sales if you're skilled, efficient, and personable. People like good service and a friendly server. And get this, the biggest tippers are the ones who like to dish out the rude and watch you swallow it in stride.

And no one's getting rich, lol. Everyone in the restaurant business works their butts off and most of them would be gone in a minute if a decent, steady, M-F job was available. It helped me get through school so it served it's purpose, and some of my closest friends still, are ones I met in the restaurant grind.

If you get good service, tip what you can and don't overthink it cuz they're not.

@JazGalaxy: Oh, I agree. It's a right mess. I've just seen what I've seen.

@RiotBananas: You can't know, sure. But it certainly wasn't "grubby places" (it occurred much more often at higher class, formal wear places, where everything was governed by reservations and the staff had PLENTY of time to stand around), and one would think you'd be less inclined to piss off generous people, lest they stop being generous. But that's not why I bother tipping; people tipped me well when they felt I deserved it, so I do the same to the next generation. Whether or not it's right (or I get anything out of it) doesn't really enter into it; do unto others, and all that shit. I just posted the above as a fair warning to what I've seen.

I'm curious; you worked in a restaurant, did you get tipped? If you did, aren't you happy you were? If you didn't, I guess that makes sense.

@pweidman: Most of the places I worked in which that happened, the owner was the perpetrator (and usually doubled as the chef). It was rare, sure, but I was surprised at how often it happened (not as rare as I would like). Just anecdotal, of course, but needless to say I didn't have any leftovers after my shift was done at those places. :D

There is a reason other countries scoff at our payment systems for our waiters and waitresses. Get a fucking a clue and make them change their policy. I refuse to pay someone (especially a teenager) 15% of a $120 meal just because they were adept enough to write my order down and bring it out.

This is not saying I don't tip, but I will not tip an entire 15%.

@JazGalaxy said:

@Fishow73 said:

I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

It makes total sense that the government would tax tips the way they tax anyone else. Otherwise, waiters and waitresses are getting paid untold amounts of money under the table by failing to hold a real job.

I mean, it might sound like I'm being hard on waiters and waitresses, but I seriously have listenend to too many of my peers talk about how much money they make in one night off of drunk tips to feel too much sympathy for a profession that exists to exploit the social custom of generosity. If you don't like a job, don't do it, and capitalism says the wage rate will go up.

Thank you, sir.

@Mirado: So what you're saying there is that they didn't stay in business long. Or at least I hope so.

Well every place is different, but the half dozen places I worked at, that sort of thing just wasn't accepted by anyone. You'd be out on your ear in a flash. :)

@Slag: No its if you didn't make the same you would have for minimum wage that day the resturant is suppose to pay the difference, but not many servers know that and the resturants get away with no doing it. Also here our minimum wage is only 7.50 in South Carolina so its still not that much. Also most servers don't get anything back from taxes and they usually have to pay more back to the government. Thats why I hated working as a server I refuse to do it ever again. Its also based on the business of the resturant. Like in the summer here you can make a ton, but once October rolls around most places layoff people and close down for the winter. Its a terrible way to live, and most people will tip shit regardless of anything.

@JazGalaxy said:

@Veektarius said:

Tip. The food you paid for costs what it costs because the operating costs of the restaurant have been decreased thanks to the waiters' lower wages. You are paying an artificially deflated price, which can only be sustained so long as we maintain some semblance of voluntary, merit-based compensation for the waiters. It's true that paying some tip is expected, but the amount in that tip can be highly variable. I had a waitress who charged me for four too many beers, I asked her to identify who had bought them, and she couldn't, but wouldn't negotiate the bill. That's a no tip situation. I get a server who only visits the table 3 times and takes so long that I actually think of getting up to hunt for someone, that's 10%. If they do an ordinary job, 15%, and so on up to like 25% for amazing service. That's 150% what they would have gotten if they had been lousy. Do you want to try and tell me that it would somehow be a fairer system if the waiter got paid the same amount in all of the above circumstances?

Of course they're a more fair way to handle it. IT's called the way EVERY OTHER JOB WORKS. You do poorly, you get yelled at or fired. You do an adequate job, you get to keep your job. You go above and beyond and you get promoted or a bump in wages.

That's because in other (non-service) jobs, your performance is evaluated by your boss. In service, your performance is evaluated by the customer. By the same logic, this is why salespeople are paid on a commission basis.

@Fallen189: If you can't afford the tip you cannot afford to eat out.

Concerning the larger issue.... Server minimum wage is down around $2.25 per hour. If combined wages and tips do not equal federal (or local) minimum wage the employer MUST compensate them by federal labor law at minimum wage for hours worked. If they were compensated at or above minimum wage by the employer and we just removed the idea of tipping, your food would simply be 15-25% more costly, and more for bar drinks etc. It wouldn't change anything except that good servers would still make above and beyond the normal wage because people would still tip them for exceptional service.

Personally, It takes a lot for me to tip less than about 15% and ill tip 20% or more for really good service. Rude, unprofessional or incompetent waitstaff don't last long at most good restaurants anyway, because they'll make no money and move along. I don't get what this backlash about tipping is even all about, you're talking an extra 3-5$ per person on average at a mid-highend meal, much less for cheaper places, and if you're eating at a place with $50+ plates of food and complaining about this then you deserve a punch in the balls.

I say don't be a cheap asshole. It's not like these people are getting rich off someone's charity, they're working for the tips and making a decent wage if they're good.

edit for clarity

Tip. The food you paid for costs what it costs because the operating costs of the restaurant have been decreased thanks to the waiters' lower wages. You are paying an artificially deflated price, which can only be sustained so long as we maintain some semblance of voluntary, merit-based compensation for the waiters. It's true that paying some tip is expected, but the amount in that tip can be highly variable. I had a waitress who charged me for four too many beers, I asked her to identify who had bought them, and she couldn't, but wouldn't negotiate the bill. That's a no tip situation. I get a server who only visits the table 3 times and takes so long that I actually think of getting up to hunt for someone, that's 10%. If they do an ordinary job, 15%, and so on up to like 25% for amazing service. That's 150% what they would have gotten if they had been lousy. Do you want to try and tell me that it would somehow be a fairer system if the waiter got paid the same amount in all of the above circumstances?

The fact that tipping is considered customary as oppose to extraordinary is complete bullshit and defeats the whole purpose what the fuck a tip is suppose to be. In every other customer related job, tips generally work as follows....
 
Do your job poorly, you get chastised/reprimanded or something of the sort. 
Do your job as expected and appreciation is (typically) granted by the customer. 
Do your job exceptionally well and go above and beyond, you get praise and may even get a tip, even in jobs and industries where tipping is unheard of. 
 
However, when it comes to serving
 
Do your job poorly you get no tip
Do your job as expected you get a moderate tip
Do your exceptionally well and you get a better tip
 
Wtf? Why does that make sense? Where's the justification in that?

I used to think like Mr. Pink, but then I got a real job and started making money.

Also, one of the least talked about perks of being a good tipper - the staff knows you and will do their damnedest to treat you like a king. The diner I frequent for lunch (getting hungry now, thinking about it) has had my patronage for a couple of years, and I've never had a late meal, bad food, or anything to complain about. I'm not going to say it's Cheers over there, since I know the only reason I'm getting the great service I get is because I've got a reputation as a good tip. That said, I'm willing to pay for the convenience.

@RiotBananas: @hbkdx12: Having worked in a few restaurants in the past, I've met a lot of chefs/servers who have become real skilled at doing nasty passive aggressive things to your food in a way that you'd never detect by looking at it, or even tasting it. These people tend to have good memories of who complains, and who tips poorly.

I'm not saying they're right (especially with regards to complains, but chefs can be quite temperamental), and I'm not saying you'll get sick from it, but if you don't tip and get sick on the third visit to a place.....you never know. Even if you don't wind up feeling it, I'm not sure you'd like the idea of someone spitting on your food, or dropping it on the (shall we say less then sanitary) kitchen floor, or any number of things I've seen. One man had his steak tossed on the floor, actually stepped on by the cook, and put back on his plate. He ate it with no complaints.

Any place I'm a regular at, I tip well. Don't piss off the help if you want to feel safe eating there twice. I don't care if you tip or not, but it's something to keep in mind.

Mr Pink always makes a good argument!

@Veektarius said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Veektarius said:

Tip. The food you paid for costs what it costs because the operating costs of the restaurant have been decreased thanks to the waiters' lower wages. You are paying an artificially deflated price, which can only be sustained so long as we maintain some semblance of voluntary, merit-based compensation for the waiters. It's true that paying some tip is expected, but the amount in that tip can be highly variable. I had a waitress who charged me for four too many beers, I asked her to identify who had bought them, and she couldn't, but wouldn't negotiate the bill. That's a no tip situation. I get a server who only visits the table 3 times and takes so long that I actually think of getting up to hunt for someone, that's 10%. If they do an ordinary job, 15%, and so on up to like 25% for amazing service. That's 150% what they would have gotten if they had been lousy. Do you want to try and tell me that it would somehow be a fairer system if the waiter got paid the same amount in all of the above circumstances?

Of course they're a more fair way to handle it. IT's called the way EVERY OTHER JOB WORKS. You do poorly, you get yelled at or fired. You do an adequate job, you get to keep your job. You go above and beyond and you get promoted or a bump in wages.

That's because in other (non-service) jobs, your performance is evaluated by your boss. In service, your performance is evaluated by the customer. By the same logic, this is why salespeople are paid on a commission basis.

I worked the produce department at the grocery store, as an umpire, referee, camp counselor and sports co-ordinatior for the YMCA/Community Association, at Walgreens as a cashier, and at Target. All my jobs were service jobs and the only thing I got by way of a tip was occasionally on the 110+ degree days, a mother might offer me a leftover poweraid. And I was FINE with that, because that's the job I agreed to take.

@hbkdx12: You'd make a kick ass waiter/waitress. It's a shame more people don't think this way, but as it stands money is such an incentive that I can't see the mentality (let alone the system) change.

Here's another related question for everyone: do you feel that the "XX% gratuity is added to the bill for parties of 8 or more" (so an automatic 15% tip is charged, service quality notwithstanding) that usually resides on the bottom of each bill is warranted/deserved? If you say yes, do you tip on top of that?

@hbkdx12: In your apartment demonstration/showing job you also weren't paid 1/4 of federal minimum wage against tips. It's simply the way our federal compensation and minimum wage acts are written, and they will likely never change, because if you think it should be changed to a system where servers are paid at normal standards, well then you hate hard working minorities and single mothers and want to drown kittens in a pillow sack.

If I get shit service (or food) I usually never return to the place. I've only refused to leave a tip maybe twice in my adult life, and both were extremely terrible occasions of incompetence coupled with rudeness. I've been out to dinner with older people who tip 3 bucks on a $150 check to a waitress who did her job exceedingly well on a very busy evening. I'm sorry but it's simply not acceptable. They did their job well and a tip is not only customary but she earned at least the typical 10-15% tip.

Honestly though, I don't care what other people tip, I tip based on the level of service I feel I received. Servers are paid based on the assumption they'll receive tips, and if you're a shitty tipper, well then you reap what you sow I suppose.

@Mirado: when there's 15% added in I very rarely tip beyond that, though I have once or twice. I don't mind if they do, but usually for good service id tip a little more than that anyway.

@JazGalaxy

I worked the produce department at the grocery store, as an umpire, referee, camp counselor and sports co-ordinatior for the YMCA/Community Association, at Walgreens as a cashier, and at Target. All my jobs were service jobs and the only thing I got by way of a tip was occasionally on the 110+ degree days, a mother might offer me a leftover poweraid. And I was FINE with that, because that's the job I agreed to take.

Umpire/Referee: There is a moral hazard involved in being paid by the people you're providing a service to. You must be evaluated by an impartial outsider (your boss)

Counselor/Co-ordinator: Serving kids? They aren't your customers, the parents are, and the parents are going to complain to your boss if there are complaints, not to you. Again, the boss performs the evaluation.

Cashier: This only counts as a service job as a matter of semantics. Your job can be (and often is) done by a computer just as easily and with as much customer satisfaction. You are very rarely going to be the portion of the service experience that a customer is going to complain about.

@hbkdx12 God, what a rant. Why is my text suddenly yellow? Anyway. Obviously if waiters were paid purely on an hourly basis there would be no savings passed on to the average tipping customer. The point is that the extra flexibility in payment is a sort of honor system where the customer can reward quality with something other than their repeat business. I would sooner the waiter be paid based on my satisfaction than just based on the number of hours they were on their feet. There's no scam here. No one is cheating you out of money you wouldn't pay otherwise. They're just giving you extra discretion as to how much money you deserve.

It's like if McDonalds sold you a cup of coke and said, "Hey - you've gotta pay .50 cents for this, plus whatever you think it's worth based on its quality. Just so you know, if everyone pays only .50, we're going out of business." Now, given the lack of social norms surrounding that sort of behavior, I'm sure they'd go out of business. But the point is that this would be a win for the consumer, not a loss.

@hbkdx12: In your apartment demonstration/showing job you also weren't paid 1/4 of federal minimum wage against tips. It's simply the way our federal compensation and minimum wage acts are written, and they will likely never change, because if you think it should be changed to a system where servers are paid at normal standards, well then you hate hard working minorities and single mothers and want to drown kittens in a pillow sack.

If I get shit service (or food) I usually never return to the place. I've only refused to leave a tip maybe twice in my adult life, and both were extremely terrible occasions of incompetence coupled with rudeness. I've been out to dinner with older people who tip 3 bucks on a $150 check to a waitress who did her job exceedingly well on a very busy evening. I'm sorry but it's simply not acceptable. They did their job well and a tip is not only customary but she earned at least the typical 10-15% tip.

Honestly though, I don't care what other people tip, I tip based on the level of service I feel I received. Servers are paid based on the assumption they'll receive tips, and if you're a shitty tipper, well then you reap what you sow I suppose.

He's an asshole. He should tip because it's part of the a waitress' wage in America. That's to say nothing of what a shitty job it is.

@Video_Game_King said:

What?

...you seriously haven't seen Reservoir Dogs?

@Unknown_Pleasures:

Not at all. I don't exactly watch a ton of movies.

@hbkdx12: You'd make a kick ass waiter/waitress. It's a shame more people don't think this way, but as it stands money is such an incentive that I can't see the mentality (let alone the system) change.

Here's another related question for everyone: do you feel that the "XX% gratuity is added to the bill for parties of 8 or more" (so an automatic 15% tip is charged, service quality notwithstanding) that usually resides on the bottom of each bill is warranted/deserved? If you say yes, do you tip on top of that?

@hbkdx12: I'll reiterate the important part you missed. The Federal minimum wage act allows for tipped employees to be compensated below minimum wage($2.25 or thereabouts currently) from the employer, as long as tips make up the difference. No other employees are paid this way, ever. The closest is commissioned sales people and even that isn't near the same. You can make up pretend jobs all you like but in very few industries is is customary to leave a person a tip, and those that are are compensated as tipped employees.

In industries where tips are not the norm, there is no comparable compensation. This is an *impossible* thing to change in the legislation, because it allows certain segments of the population who work in food service to make more money in less hours than would otherwise be possible. Changing that would meet such stiff resistance as to be pretty well impossible to pass.

Im sorry but its the way the system is setup. And yes, you should tip at least 10% for adequate service. Weather you do or not is up to you obviously, but it doesn't help your case to simply say "they should do their job and be happy about it"

  @Renahzor said:

@hbkdx12: I'll reiterate the important part you missed. The Federal minimum wage act allows for tipped employees to be compensated below minimum wage($2.25 or thereabouts currently) from the employer, as long as tips make up the difference. No other employees are paid this way, ever. The closest is commissioned sales people and even that isn't near the same. You can make up pretend jobs all you like but in very few industries is is customary to leave a person a tip, and those that are are compensated as tipped employees.

In industries where tips are not the norm, there is no comparable compensation. This is an *impossible* thing to change in the legislation, because it allows certain segments of the population who work in food service to make more money in less hours than would otherwise be possible. Changing that would meet such stiff resistance as to be pretty well impossible to pass.

Im sorry but its the way the system is setup. And yes, you should tip at least 10% for adequate service. Weather you do or not is up to you obviously, but it doesn't help your case to simply say "they should do their job and be happy about it"

@Renahzor said:

@Fallen189: If you can't afford the tip you cannot afford to eat out.

Yeah, I can. If a meal costs £15, and I have £15, I can afford to eat out. I shouldn't feel obliged to give extra money out just because it's "expected"

I don't go into Tesco and give them 10% because I bought a great sandwich last week

This thread again?

Really?

If you live in America and you don't tip, you're a piece of shit.

@RiotBananas said:

I don't tip. Waitresses and Waiters do that fake nice shit deliberately to try and get the tip and it really fucking annoys me when the bill says "Service not included" Yes it was, they're being paid for doing their job and their job description is to bring me food. I don't care if they're completely silent, infact I'd prefer them to just cut the fakeness and just bring me my food. I've gone to a restaurant to eat not have pretend niceties with the staff. If anything the tips should be going to the chef for good food.

So fuck tips and fuck people who tip. Come at me.

Says a guy who clearly has never had a real job in his life.

@hbkdx12 God, what a rant. Why is my text suddenly yellow? Anyway. Obviously if waiters were paid purely on an hourly basis there would be no savings passed on to the average tipping customer. The point is that the extra flexibility in payment is a sort of honor system where the customer can reward quality with something other than their repeat business. I would sooner the waiter be paid based on my satisfaction than just based on the number of hours they were on their feet. There's no scam here. No one is cheating you out of money you wouldn't pay otherwise. They're just giving you extra discretion as to how much money you deserve.

It's like if McDonalds sold you a cup of coke and said, "Hey - you've gotta pay .50 cents for this, plus whatever you think it's worth based on its quality. Just so you know, if everyone pays only .50, we're going out of business." Now, given the lack of social norms surrounding that sort of behavior, I'm sure they'd go out of business. But the point is that this would be a win for the consumer, not a loss.