I don't need to say anything educated anymore. I know exactly where debates with people like you end up. It's too late for you. You lost. If you don't like it leave the country.
Why is it socilist now and not after the gigantic bailout under Bush, the increace is government spending under Bush and Bush doing nothing about the monetary policy?
"Why is it socilist now and not after the gigantic bailout under Bush, the increace is government spending under Bush and Bush doing nothing about the monetary policy?"
Why now, because Obama's polocies are in fact, Socialist at their core.
Bush was a corporate socialist, and name any significant Bush decision that actually helped the majority of Americans.
Obama has socialist leanings, yes, but at the same time I prefer those leanings to the ridiculously narcissistic policies of the previous administration or the self-serving goals (and retarded vice presidential decision) of the McCain campaign.
Are any of you "he's a socialist" dudes actually aware what socialism is? I'm actually curious is you've bothered to look it up, because I'm fairly certain you're unaware of what it is. Calling Obama a socialist is kind of like calling him Chinese or something equally ridiculous.
"Why is it socilist now and not after the gigantic bailout under Bush, the increace is government spending under Bush and Bush doing nothing about the monetary policy?"
Why now, because Obama's polocies are in fact, Socialist at their core."
And george bushs 700 bil bailout wasnt?"
The funny thing is everybody says "it's GW's 700M plan" Sorry, but there was an entire GOVERMENT behind the plan, that includes Mr Obama. And, the same people that are saying it's a socialist plan are the ones saying "the goverment needs to step in and fix this" Damnd if you do, damnd if you dont.....
Socialists mainly share the belief capitalism "unfairly" concentrates power and wealth. So when someone comes along and says " You may have worked hard for your money, but it's not "fair" that you made so much so we are going to "spread" it around.... that is socialism. What's mine, is not mine, it's everybody elses.
Are you under the impression that the "spreading around" will include monthly checks to poor people or something? More wealthy people will simply be taxed fairly (i.e. closer to what most people pay, as apposed to less) to fund government programs. "Spreading around" also refers to paying for stuff that we have been borrowing money from China for, not some kind of Robin Hood ideal that people seem to think.
That's a rather broad generalization, Warbuff, and not a particularly accurate one. Simplistic views like this are what is holding us back. Anything that is moderately socialist is somehow labeled as 'extremist' and 'Marxist', as if there is only one socialist view, and anyone who agrees with anything similar is anti american and is going to steal all of your money.
Interesting how people say the wealthy are not taxed fairly. Let's say you.. yes you, are in the upper tax bracket, and aer currently paying 40%. While the less wealth are paying ummm 25%. You are ALREADY paying 15% more! Now, the goverment comes along and says "gee, you are STILL making to much, here is another 8% tax for you." Now that is just as a tax paying citizen.
Lets now move to business. Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD. This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out. So Obamas plan is to tax those big compines even more... because it's the "right" thing to do, to make it "fair" This is on top of what his plan is for small business, LOL, we will all be luck to have jobs if it all goes as planned, but at least we will have free health insurance :)
Lets now move to business. Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD. This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out. So Obamas plan is to tax those big compines even more... because it's the "right" thing to do, to make it "fair" This is on top of what his plan is for small business, LOL, we will all be luck to have jobs if it all goes as planned, but at least we will have free health insurance :)
Your right, man. That Marxist bastard is taxing rich people because he feels rich people make too much money. It has nothing to do with the fact that our previous president lowered taxes for these people and raised spending, putting us into some serious debt. In fact, I imagine we could survive indefinitely without any taxes at all. Taxes are socialist, after all. And socialism automatically means you are an anti-American communist terrorist extremist.
"Your right, man. That Marxist bastard is taxing rich people because he feels rich people make too much money. It has nothing to do with the fact that our previous president lowered taxes for these people and raised spending, putting us into some serious debt. In fact, I imagine we could survive indefinitely without any taxes at all. Taxes are socialist, after all. And socialism automatically means you are an anti-American communist terrorist extremist."
Did I ever say taxes were socialist? I understand the need for them, but there has to be a better way than speading the "burden" unequally.
"Interesting how people say the wealthy are not taxed fairly. Let's say you.. yes you, are in the upper tax bracket, and aer currently paying 40%. While the less wealth are paying ummm 25%. You are ALREADY paying 15% more! Now, the goverment comes along and says "gee, you are STILL making to much, here is another 8% tax for you." Now that is just as a tax paying citizen.
Lets now move to business. Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD. This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out. So Obamas plan is to tax those big compines even more... because it's the "right" thing to do, to make it "fair" This is on top of what his plan is for small business, LOL, we will all be luck to have jobs if it all goes as planned, but at least we will have free health insurance :)
"
My dad's side of the family is in the upper tax bracket, and they do not pay 40%. If you're suggesting a hypothetical situation where rich people pay 40%, then yes, I agree with you. Your numbers however do not reflect reality. The fact is, currently I pay a higher tax % being in the middle bracket than my family does being in the upper bracket.
"Your right, man. That Marxist bastard is taxing rich people because he feels rich people make too much money. It has nothing to do with the fact that our previous president lowered taxes for these people and raised spending, putting us into some serious debt. In fact, I imagine we could survive indefinitely without any taxes at all. Taxes are socialist, after all. And socialism automatically means you are an anti-American communist terrorist extremist."
Did I ever say taxes were socialist? I understand the need for them, but there has to be a better way than speading the "burden" unequally."
You define socialism as "bad". You've said Obama is going to turn the US into a socialist state because of his tax policy. You've also given a rather infantile definition of socialism which describes Obama because he wants to raise taxes, implying that there is no economic reason for doing so.
Taxes are socialist, though. In an extreme laissez fair capitalist society, there would ideally be no taxes, and everything the government provides us either would not exist, or would be run by private organizations. Of course, almost nobody is advocating that, because it's extreme and doesn't work. Modern capitalists are much more moderate. See how that works?
"Interesting how people say the wealthy are not taxed fairly. Let's say you.. yes you, are in the upper tax bracket, and aer currently paying 40%. While the less wealth are paying ummm 25%. You are ALREADY paying 15% more! Now, the goverment comes along and says "gee, you are STILL making to much, here is another 8% tax for you." Now that is just as a tax paying citizen.
Lets now move to business. Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD. This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out. So Obamas plan is to tax those big compines even more... because it's the "right" thing to do, to make it "fair" This is on top of what his plan is for small business, LOL, we will all be luck to have jobs if it all goes as planned, but at least we will have free health insurance :)
"
My dad's side of the family is in the upper tax bracket, and they do not pay 40%. If you're suggesting a hypothetical situation where rich people pay 40%, then yes, I agree with you. Your numbers however do not reflect reality. The fact is, currently I pay a higher tax % being in the middle bracket than my family does being in the upper bracket."
Currently the upper tax bracket pays 35% for federal income. Under Clinton, for seven years that rate was 39%. Obama's plan is to put that rate back to 39%. One more thing, the non income taxes that middle and lower income people pay are higher in proportion to incomes of the rich. I'm talking sales and fuel taxes...etc You have to take that into consideration.
"The funny thing is everybody says "it's GW's 700M plan" Sorry, but there was an entire GOVERMENT behind the plan, that includes Mr Obama."
So that time it's not Socialist because everyone else is doing it?
Gen_Warbuff said:
"Bellum said:
"Your right, man. That Marxist bastard is taxing rich people because he feels rich people make too much money. It has nothing to do with the fact that our previous president lowered taxes for these people and raised spending, putting us into some serious debt. In fact, I imagine we could survive indefinitely without any taxes at all. Taxes are socialist, after all. And socialism automatically means you are an anti-American communist terrorist extremist."
Did I ever say taxes were socialist? I understand the need for them, but there has to be a better way than speading the "burden" unequally."
Do you think we should have a military? Do you think we should have public schools? Do you think we should have public roads and highways? Do you think we should have sidewalks on the street? Do you think we should have street signs and lights? Do you think we should have a police force? Do you think we should have a fire station?
If you said yes to any of these--you're a filthy fucking socialist bastard.
Newsflash: Pure capitalism does not work and never will. We will always be blurring the lines between capitalism and socialism because it's a system that has served us well.
As for taxes, some of you fundamentally do not understand our tax system--you're looking at nominal tax rates instead of the real (or average) tax rate.
"Currently the upper tax bracket pays 35% for federal income. Under Clinton, for seven years that rate was 39%. Obama's plan is to put that rate back to 39%."
To be clear, that upper tax bracket will be taxed 39% on every dollar above a certain dollar amount. ($357,700). Every dollar beneath it is taxed at the appropriate rate--meaning the first $8,025 of that $357,700 is taxed at 10 percent, from $8,026 to $36,550 is taxed at 15 percent and so on up the brackets. The average will NEVER be 35 or 39 percent. Ever. Ever. Not even if you're a billionaire. It will never be 39 percent.
And that's not even factoring in deductions and credits. The real tax rate is significantly lower. And this applies the same for businesses in America. We might have a high nominal tax rate, but the real tax rate is very small on corporations, almost to the point that they might not even pay a single dollar in taxes.
When did socialism become a bad word?The most extreme left is communism, the most extreme right is anarchy. In between democracy and communism is socialism, if we have a far leaning left president then many policys will resemble socialism. So what? A few people are going to be brought down a class but a significantly large number of people will be brought up. And the seedy super-rich who technically live on some tax free island will continue to evade some taxes and be super-rich, but maybe now a bit more will trickle down. "Socialism" for all your incorrect and cartoonish connotations is the pefect thing to get us out of our crisis.
lol, yes I do love the nice roads the government has built for us, I also love the money the government has givin me to go to school, so I think im gonna enjoy the ride, I think them for opening more doors then I could alone, teh government is so evil for helping its citzens
[Gen Warbuff] >Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD
I see in the Wikipedia article it ranges from 15-39%, which taken from the highest, makes it the second. I don't think this includes visits to H&R Block, which reduces it significantly. They actually had to pass legislation because rich people were writing off so much of these taxes, they were getting large sums of money back (on top of them making ultra high wages)
>Interesting how people say the wealthy are not taxed fairly. Let's say you.. yes you, are in the upper tax bracket, and aer currently paying 40%. While the less wealth are paying ummm 25%. You are ALREADY paying 15% more! Now, the goverment comes along and says "gee, you are STILL making to much, here is another 8% tax for you." Now that is just as a tax paying citizen.
Let's put this in this real terms: let's say someone made a million and gets taxed 50% - he still has $500,000 - which is a lot more than anyone needs. Compare that with someone making 25K and getting 2,500 taken away (10%) for taxes. Even if they were taxed at 0% (yeah right) that 2,500 will probably go to necessities like maybe a not so horrible of a place (as compared to a mansion) or items for themselves or their children, or whatever. Also middle class wages are stagnating while CEO's are giving themselves double digit increases in their wages (when you're making 1 mil a year, a 10% wage increase is 100 thousand). One alternative is to force them to give their workers higher wages or, as we're doing now, tax them more. Or they could not hike prices up of things so much. Anyways, concentrating money to the rich destroys economies because people can't afford to buy things. Also if anyone finds this unfair, they can always quit their million/year job and go to Wal-Mart. Any takers?
>This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out.
I was under the impression that it was to save on labor costs. Why bother worrying about something they can write off? But people in the US cost more, and need things like insurance, and you can't write off all their wages on your tax form, so that's why they moved. Also I think we should raise import tariffs, especially for those people wonderful enough to take all the jobs out of the US.
Look we have 2 choices, basically. We can sink deeper and deeper into the plutocracy we are (and benefit that 5% of the population even more - like they need it) or we can lean more towards socialism and benefit the other 95%. We can't give the rich more and more ad infinitum (even if their taxes don't increase, they'll just hike their wages more). For us to survive as a society, the rich will have to tighten their belts - and why not, everyone else is expected to.
"[Gen Warbuff] >Our country has the SECOND HIGHEST corporate tax rate IN THE WORLD
I see in the Wikipedia article it ranges from 15-39%, which taken from the highest, makes it the second. I don't think this includes visits to H&R Block, which reduces it significantly. They actually had to pass legislation because rich people were writing off so much of these taxes, they were getting large sums of money back (on top of them making ultra high wages)
>Interesting how people say the wealthy are not taxed fairly. Let's say you.. yes you, are in the upper tax bracket, and aer currently paying 40%. While the less wealth are paying ummm 25%. You are ALREADY paying 15% more! Now, the goverment comes along and says "gee, you are STILL making to much, here is another 8% tax for you." Now that is just as a tax paying citizen.
Let's put this in this real terms: let's say someone made a million and gets taxed 50% - he still has $500,000 - which is a lot more than anyone needs. Compare that with someone making 25K and getting 2,500 taken away (10%) for taxes. Even if they were taxed at 0% (yeah right) that 2,500 will probably go to necessities like maybe a not so horrible of a place (as compared to a mansion) or items for themselves or their children, or whatever. Also middle class wages are stagnating while CEO's are giving themselves double digit increases in their wages (when you're making 1 mil a year, a 10% wage increase is 100 thousand). One alternative is to force them to give their workers higher wages or, as we're doing now, tax them more. Or they could not hike prices up of things so much. Anyways, concentrating money to the rich destroys economies because people can't afford to buy things. Also if anyone finds this unfair, they can always quit their million/year job and go to Wal-Mart. Any takers?
>This is a HUGE reason why so many companines are moving out.
I was under the impression that it was to save on labor costs. Why bother worrying about something they can write off? But people in the US cost more, and need things like insurance, and you can't write off all their wages on your tax form, so that's why they moved. Also I think we should raise import tariffs, especially for those people wonderful enough to take all the jobs out of the US.
Look we have 2 choices, basically. We can sink deeper and deeper into the plutocracy we are (and benefit that 5% of the population even more - like they need it) or we can lean more towards socialism and benefit the other 95%. We can't give the rich more and more ad infinitum (even if their taxes don't increase, they'll just hike their wages more). For us to survive as a society, the rich will have to tighten their belts - and why not, everyone else is expected to."
See, it's that exact mentality that I truly, honestly don't understand or agree with. "That person makes more, so they need to be taxed more" So what if someone makes $500k or $1M. What if... omg, they paid to go to school, created a business.... and made that money? Anybody who agees with taxing someone just because they make more than you, or lives in a nicer place is just a jealous person in my opinion.
150 Comments