NOTE: I did not mean to put down Mass Effect 2. I was trying to use it as an example(I have learned from this and I will explain myself better in the future). I am not going to change anything I wrote because it was the first post I ever wrote. Also I was not trying to put down people that don't like the game or just don't like JRPG's. I was trying to defend a good game from the unwarranted hate it was getting.   
 
No game that sells roughly 2 million copies in Japan can be bad! Not only is it very hard to sell games in Japan, but also Final Fantasy XIII came out selling at $90. This might tell you something about this game. I am Japanese and the Japanese do not take games likely. I have played Final Fantasy XIII and it is very fun, now granted I have never played any of the other Final Fantasies, but this game has made want to play the others. Final Fantasy XIII has extremely smooth game play and the best graphics I have seen so far this year. Now as far as I can tell the many of the critic's reviews are biased and want to bash a good JRPG. All the critics want to do is promote the Western RPGs, like Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 had many audio glitches, some other weird glitches, and a couple of storyline problems and it got a 9.6. I believe that Mass Effect 2 does not deserve this score because of these noticeable glitches, but I will say that it has enough good things about it to at least deserve above a 9 but not a 9.6. But back to my point a game that has literally little to no texture, audio, or overall game play glitches, and not to mention graphics that will make your mind explode, to get an 9 or below score by the critics is unbelievable. I would recomend people to get this game.                 

The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more. 

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

" No game that sells roughly 2 million copies in Japan can be bad! Not only is it very hard to sell games in Japan, but also Final Fantasy XIII came out selling at $90. This might tell you something about this game. I am Japanese and the Japanese do not take games likely. I have played Final Fantasy XIII and it is very fun, now granted I have never played any of the other Final Fantasies, but this game has made want to play the others. Final Fantasy XIII has extremely smooth game play and the best graphics I have seen so far this year. Now as far as I can tell the many of the critic's reviews are biased and want to bash a good JRPG. All the critics want to do is promote the Western RPGs, like Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 had many audio glitches, some other weird glitches, and a couple of storyline problems and it got a 9.6. I believe that Mass Effect 2 does not deserve this score because of these noticeable glitches, but I will say that it has enough good things about it to at least deserve above a 9 but not a 9.6. But back to my point a game that has literally little to no texture, audio, or overall game play glitches, and not to mention graphics that will make your mind explode, to get an 9 or below score by the critics is unbelievable. I would recomend people to get this game.                  "

" @The_Laughing_Man said:

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

No there are multiple people (like that guy w/ the pheonix avatar who I cannot remember the name of) who are bashing its linearity.  

" @demontium said:

" @The_Laughing_Man said:

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

No there are multiple people (like that guy w/ the pheonix avatar who I cannot remember the name of) who are bashing its linearity.  

That is kaos. And after his little " IMPORT NOW! " then " IT SUCKS" thing... "

Its Final Fantasy, it would have sold 2 million copies in Japan because of the name alone.

" Its Final Fantasy, it would have sold 2 million copies in Japan because of the name alone. "

"  to get an 9 or below score by the critics is unbelievable. I would recomend people to get this game.  "

@ Cross_Marian 

"No game that sells roughly 2 million copies in Japan can be bad! " 
 
Don't the Dynasty Warriors games sell by the truckload over there...?

 
Not saying that this means that FFXIII sucks like DW or anything like that (I will make up my mind when I actualy play it), but game sales don't always equal awesome game. Otherwise, there must be something I'm missing out on, cause Just Dance dominated the UK charts for a while.

" @The_Laughing_Man said:

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

No there are multiple people (like that guy w/ the pheonix avatar who I cannot remember the name of) who are bashing its linearity.  
 

FFXIII doesn't need defending. It will appeal to a specific audience and it won't appeal to the rest -- like any JRPG. 
 
@vidiot said:

" @demontium said:

" @The_Laughing_Man said:

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

No there are multiple people (like that guy w/ the pheonix avatar who I cannot remember the name of) who are bashing its linearity.  
 

Bashing a game because it's linear is problematic for me, a double standard considering most games are "linear". From what I can tell Final Fantasy XIII doesn't invoke the same illusion of exploration, or illusion on non-linearity the previous entries had (Branching paths with dungeons, towns), and I personally won't know if I'm okay with that, until I sit down and play the final product come Tuesday. Granted this illusion is staple to the RPG genre, so I'm interested to see how the game works without it. If it's in-fact, really gone. There's a larger argument here that I've been thinking about regarding defining "non-linearity", I think we throw around that term a bit haphazardly without really knowing what that exactly means. There's a blog brewing in my mind for the near future, no doubt about that.  You seem new on the forums, so I'll come with you halfway Cross_Marian. Mass Effect 2 most certainly deserved the scores it got, but I find comparing and contrasting a game like FFXIII to the likes of ME2 is a bit poor. As with most JRPG to WRPG comparisons. Not because one is better than the other mind you, but because both sub-genres, and games clearly are working at very different results both mechanically and from a presentation standpoint. I wouldn't take someone's complaint that FFXIII is poor because it's not like ME2 very seriously. "

" FFXIII doesn't need defending. It will appeal to a specific audience and it won't appeal to the rest -- like any JRPG."

" @demontium said:

" @The_Laughing_Man said:

" The only person who really is smashing on FF13 is Kaos. And since his little posting thing I do not think many take him at face value any more.  "

No there are multiple people (like that guy w/ the pheonix avatar who I cannot remember the name of) who are bashing its linearity.  
 

Bashing a game because it's linear is problematic for me, a double standard considering most games are "linear". From what I can tell Final Fantasy XIII doesn't invoke the same illusion of exploration, or illusion on non-linearity the previous entries had (Branching paths with dungeons, towns), and I personally won't know if I'm okay with that, until I sit down and play the final product come Tuesday. Granted this illusion is staple to the RPG genre, so I'm interested to see how the game works without it. If it's in-fact, really gone. There's a larger argument here that I've been thinking about regarding defining "non-linearity", I think we throw around that term a bit haphazardly without really knowing what that exactly means. There's a blog brewing in my mind for the near future, no doubt about that.  You seem new on the forums, so I'll come with you halfway Cross_Marian. Mass Effect 2 most certainly deserved the scores it got, but I find comparing and contrasting a game like FFXIII to the likes of ME2 is a bit poor. As with most JRPG to WRPG comparisons. Not because one is better than the other mind you, but because both sub-genres, and games clearly are working at very different results both mechanically and from a presentation standpoint. I wouldn't take someone's complaint that FFXIII is poor because it's not like ME2 very seriously. "  

First, welcome to the GiantBomb forums, duder.
 
Second, Final Fantasy doesn't need defending from the press. Final Fantasy's a big boy, he can take care of himself.  He's a hugely popular franchise that's comfortably entrenched in gaming history, guaranteed a purchase by millions of gamers on the strength of it's brand alone. If anything FF is lucky to be FF. I'd bet the Tales series would kill to be FF. Now, if we're to discuss the relative merits of the game, that's cool. But there's really no need to defend the game from the big, bad western gaming press, because by all accounts, it's pulling very respectable scores.
 
Third, FFXIII's critical reception has nothing to do with ME2, apart from the fact that one game incorporates design trends currently popular in the west, and the other doesn't and is getting dinged for it. But there's no conspiracy to elevate WRPGs at the expense of FFXIII.

I actually thought that you were going to talk about what makes this game good. You didn't really focus on the game at all. All I got out of this thread is that you're Japanese and "Japanese don't take games lightly". I haven't played the13 yet but I was hoping to see more threads going deeper than "this game is better than Mass Effect:2". You say critics are bashing this game but it seems like you're bashing people that weren't into the game as much as you.

"I actually thought that you were going to talk about what makes this game good. You didn't really focus on the game at all. All I got out of this thread is that you're Japanese and "Japanese don't take games lightly". I haven't played the13 yet but I was hoping to see more threads going deeper than "this game is better than Mass Effect:2". You say critics are bashing this game but it seems like you're bashing people that weren't into the game as much as you. "

Has an JRPG ever gone without hate? its pretty simple, if you like JRPG games you will like FF13 if you dont, then you wont.
 
/thread.

" @EchoForge: And sorry but no. Selling games is very hard in Japan, so for a game to sell 2 million copies is a lot. It got huge media attention because it sold ruffly 2 million that was just in the 1st week.  "

It's a Final Fantasy game, therefore I HAVE to buy it. Even bad FF games are usually decent.

Sorry, but I was a huge Final Fantasy fan up until X, and I feel the genre as a whole has grown extremely stale..  Sometimes attempting to evolve while sticking to outdated clichés, but still stale.  The last one I've been able to enjoy was Lost Odyssey which I felt stuck true to what a JRPG should be, without feeling like a relic of the past.  
 
The fact I think Final Fantasy XIII is terrible has nothing to do with my love of games like Mass Effect, I certainly think there's room in the industry for multiple genre's like this.  But XIII is not what I want from a Final Fantasy game and it doesn't appeal to me as a game at all.  The combat system is nothing but style over substance, the story and character development seems aimed at pre-teen girls and the setting and lore appear to be a jumbled mess with no interest or intrigue what so ever..  the complete linearity of the game really doesn't help this either, as anything that might be interesting is spoon fed to you, rather than being left up to the player to explore and discover.

" @Cross_Marian:  It shipped 2 million copies because its name is Final Fantasy 13 and it's been hyped for years. It went from 9k (Around 100USD) to 4k yen (Around 45USD) which means that stores ordered too many and are trying to clear stock.  Either everyone who wanted it bought it in the first week, or after everyone played it word of mouth spread and demand sharply decreased.  Since it's sitting at 3/5 stars on Amazon.co.jp and Japanese message boards like 2channel are ripping on the game, I assume that people aren't happy with it and that those critics aren't trying to promote Mass Effect 2.  Add the US and European reviews into the mix and it's clear that this game is divisive, and not some breakaway critical hit.  It's not some Western conspiracy or cultural discord, Western reviewers grew up on Japanese games too.  Any comparison between ME2 and FF13 is probably due to both being released so closely and both, in their own way, trying to radically change the RPG format. That doesn't mean it's bad.  I think it just means that if you're not open to change then you will be disappointed and that if you are willing then you might have a chance to like it.If you like the game that's great, but all evidence I can see points to it not being a Final Fantasy game that the people familiar with the series want.  And like you said, it's your first one. "

FF13 is poo, and not a relaxing poo it's more like a little piece that's hanging on and you have to jiggle your ass a bit to get it to fall off.

" FFXIII doesn't need defending. It will appeal to a specific audience and it won't appeal to the rest -- like any JRPG. 
 

It could have been a stick game and if they had named it final fantasy or it had been hardware that was small it would have easily sold 2 million. Or dragon quest they could put a turd in a box put dragon quest on it and BOOM 5 million sales.

" FF13 is poo, and not a relaxing poo it's more like a little piece that's hanging on and you have to jiggle your ass a bit to get it to fall off. "

" @Quacktastic said:

" @Cross_Marian:  It shipped 2 million copies because its name is Final Fantasy 13 and it's been hyped for years. It went from 9k (Around 100USD) to 4k yen (Around 45USD) which means that stores ordered too many and are trying to clear stock.  Either everyone who wanted it bought it in the first week, or after everyone played it word of mouth spread and demand sharply decreased.  Since it's sitting at 3/5 stars on Amazon.co.jp and Japanese message boards like 2channel are ripping on the game, I assume that people aren't happy with it and that those critics aren't trying to promote Mass Effect 2.  Add the US and European reviews into the mix and it's clear that this game is divisive, and not some breakaway critical hit.  It's not some Western conspiracy or cultural discord, Western reviewers grew up on Japanese games too.  Any comparison between ME2 and FF13 is probably due to both being released so closely and both, in their own way, trying to radically change the RPG format. That doesn't mean it's bad.  I think it just means that if you're not open to change then you will be disappointed and that if you are willing then you might have a chance to like it.If you like the game that's great, but all evidence I can see points to it not being a Final Fantasy game that the people familiar with the series want.  And like you said, it's your first one. "

I don't think people seem to understand that this is the lowest scoring main FF game on Amazan.jp, not even FF12 did this bad.  Dude, it sold 2 million becuase it has the FF name and all first edition prints came with the FF14 code that grants instant PS3 beta PLUS exclusive items that will ONLY be given to users who have the FF13 code.  If FF13 wasn't called FF and was made by a western dev, FF13 would never have sold as fast as it did.   Square fanboys need to understand that Square is human like everyone else and they aren't perfect.  This game isn't what we were promised back in 2006. "

" @Cross_Marian said:

"  to get an 9 or below score by the critics is unbelievable. I would recomend people to get this game.  "

 I love lines like these, just shows people don't understand review scores. "

There is nothing wrong with Final Fantasy XIII, people are only bashing it because it's different and because it's a popular franchise with easy to piss off fanboys.
 
Some of the changes seem a little odd to me, but the story is pretty solid (when it finally starts to make some fucking sense lol) and graphicly it's beautiful.

I hate it when people say Japan hated the game, they did not.

Sounds like most of the people saying negative things about it can't tolerate linearity.

" Sounds like most of the people saying negative things about it can't tolerate linearity. "

Honestly, most reviews are quite positive if you actually read the review instead of the score. If linearity is something you're OK with, you'll most likely love this game. I know I did, regardless of its metacritic score. 
 
@Yukoei said:

" @natetodamax said:

" Sounds like most of the people saying negative things about it can't tolerate linearity. "

The funny thing is, all FF games are linear just well disguised.  "

This ain't politics dude. If you like it, then play it. Those that don't won't. Let's keep it like that. 

" @Bigandtasty said:

" @Cross_Marian: I agree that FF13 is getting unwarranted hate from people who haven't even played it, but the way you word your argument it seems like glitches and graphics are the most important thing. Also, you are obsessing over review scores far too much. A score below 9 is still a great game. People score everything too high nowadays, so they think a 7 means "average" or even "mediocre". That's ridiculous. "

7 means "not worth spending 60+ dollars on" or "rental". "

" @EchoForge: And sorry but no. Selling games is very hard in Japan, so for a game to sell 2 million copies is a lot. It got huge media attention because it sold ruffly 2 million that was just in the 1st week.  "

" @Cross_Marian said:

" @EchoForge: And sorry but no. Selling games is very hard in Japan, so for a game to sell 2 million copies is a lot. It got huge media attention because it sold ruffly 2 million that was just in the 1st week.  "

It sold two million copies because has Final Fantasy in the title.  What else do you want?  Here in the Americas, where RPGs are actually being developed with the technology and ideas of 2010, not the tech of 2006 and mindset of 1995. "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOrvwNbmaEo

I'd check this out if I were you if your worried about sales.... Some concepts are timeless, and to be honest. The design perspective of 2009 from a traditional rpg standpoint were very questionable to say the very least.

Just because something sells a shit load, doesn't mean it's good. 

I like how people quote Japanese sales like they know the industry, or have even been over there before.   Let me break it down for you.  Square SHIPPED two million units at launch, that was their expected sales number.  They sold just under that, around 1 million the first day and about 700,000 more by the end of the year (and it released Dec 17th, so that's pretty good).  I don't think coming just under your estimated shipped units is a bad place to be.  So stop trying to say it failed in Japan, it was about exactly what Square expected.  
 
 You can always find ANY game for cheap in Japan, that's a quality of Japan.  Go to Akihabara a week or two after a game comes out, and you can find ANY game on the super cheap, that isn't unique to FFXIII.   Games in Japan are ridiculously expensive at launch, but they rapidly drop in price at any of the major electronics retailers in Akiba.  You pay a huge premium in Japan to get a game on launch day.  Apparently, over a million people are willing to pay that premium.  That's not a failure.
 
The game did pretty well in Japan, and it'll do fine here.  It isn't the best FF game I have played, but it's a strong entry in the franchise.  I can't say how the English translation and stuff will be, so that may influence some early impressions (I hear the English Vanille is...questionable).   That said, it's a very strong combat system with robust characters.  The story isn't super amazing, but it isn't bad by any means.  It's linear, but so many games are, and JRPGs in particular always have been pretty linear.  I don't see how that is any different now. 
 
So yeah, the same people are gonna hate this game no matter how good it actually was.  Too many people want every FF to either be a WRPG (which it isn't) or FFVII-2.  Since neither of things will ever happen, they are gonna hate every FF game.  Don't let it bother you, and just enjoy the game for the really fun overall experience it represents.   
 
@Tarsier:  
If you never play something that gets below a 7 on reviews, you are missing a lot of great games.  Especially niche games that may be a genre you like, but not critically well received.  This is why I don't think any reviewer should attach a score to their reviews.  Just write the review and let people read it.