" @Hailinel: Hailinel, no offense but you're a weaboo, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time. "I'm sorry. I don't take people who use 4chan slang seriously. If you're going to criticize my style of argument, try insulting me with something else.
BioWare co-founder: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'
Nope. I mean the opposite of evolving." @Potter9156 said:
" JRPGs aren't evolving and WRPGs are de-evolving, partly thanks to Bioware. Yep, the RPG genre is in a pretty shitty place. "You mean devolving, right? Cause de-evolving is kinda redundant. "
The BioWare dude is totally correct, and many Japanese devs share his sentiments, it isn't just Keiji Inafune that expresses disapointment in the stagnation of the Japanese gaming industry. (And Capcom is doing far better than most Japanese, and that's because they know how to make games for the rest of the world and aren't afraid of going outside of Japan for developers.)
Also, It isn't just JRPGs that are suffering, it's the whole industry over there, partly because of the fact that Japanese gamers refuse to support an original IP ever(Here's looking at you Okami.) and also because the development studios are typically ran by old men with old ideas.
Anyway, weeaboos will never find faults with glorious Nippon, even if real Japanese people do.
Fair enough, Hailinel, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time.
" @Hailinel said:I'm fighting because the use of exaggerations and stereotypes when arguing with what's supposedly wrong with a genre does nothing but muddle the issue." @Milkman said:Um...why are you fighting against someone who is obviously exaggerating to prove a point?" He's spot on. WRPGs have passed JRPGs in almost every single aspect (barring a select few, I guess). WRPGs have figured out how to make combat fun and accessible, something JRPGs have ALWAYS struggled with. The story of WRPGs have evolved way past JRPGs. Though I'm sure some of you will say that they still enjoy the same story of spiky haired young boys fighting against an anicent reawoken evil, the majority of the world will probably disagree. "Bullshit. This is bullshit to the nth degree.
Combat is not "more accessible" in WRPGs. For me, playing Dragon Age on anything but the lowest difficulty becomes a clusterfuck because I am terrible at real-time strategy. Sure, I can pause the game and switch tactics that way, but that just leads me back down the path of the original Icewind Dale, and issues I had with ID's design left me unable/unwilling to finish the game. The combat is just loaded with complications of a different sort.
And while I ultimately enjoyed Dragon Age, I hated Oblivion. The skill-based leveling system was a pain to use. The way enemy power scaling worked not only invalidated leveling, but also made the game more ludicrous over time. Fallout 3 lacked a lot of Oblivion's worst offenses despite being ridiculed as Oblivion with guns, but at the same time it had its own problems. The moral choices and morality are stark black and white, and very few choices made in the game have the same level of impact as the nuke in Megaton. The idea of choice presented in the game doesn't feel natural. It's stringent and artificial.
And I really wish I didn't feel it necessary to do this, but there are a number of JRPGs that don't fall into the "Teens save the world from an ancient evil" category. (And this is by no means a complete list. Just games I'm familiar with that I can think of off the top of my head.)
"
- Final Fantasy IV
- Final Fantasy VI
- Final Fantasy VII (Most of the characters, including Cloud, are in their early/mid-twenties. Suck it, stereotypers.)
- The SaGa series as a whole.
- Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
- Dragon Quest IV
- Dragon Quest V
- Lost Odyssey
- Eternal Sonata
- Torneko's Mysterious Dungeon
- Sweet Home
- Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
Besides, while WRPGs innovations may have fallen short in some areas, the point is, at least WRPGs are TRYING new things. Where as JRPGs have remain very stagnate over the last decade. All those games you've mentioned can be very interchangibly in terms of combat style and story. Japanese companies operate a "If it aint broke don't fix it" policy. Take the battle system change from Final Fantasy XII to Final Fantasy XIII, "Well a lot of people didn't like the real time combat in 12, so let's go back to the turn based combat we've had since the beginning." Game companies all over the world are afraid to try new things for fear that it might bite them in the ass, especially in this economy. Which also explains why we have so many freakin' sequels for games coming out, because they are certain to be successful. "
And do you really think that JRPGs have been stagnant for the past ten years? Look at Final Fantasy X. Now look at Final Fantasy XII, Eternal Sonata, Valkyrie Profile 2, and Persona 4. All of those games were released in the past decade. How do any of those games play exactly alike to one another?
And as for your FFXII to FFXIII example, that's flawed beyond belief. Final Fantasy has always been a series that's been known for switching game mechanics up. It's been that way since Final Fantasy II introduced a completely different leveling system that changed how one approached battle completely in comparison to the first game. Final Fantasy III introduced the job system, which was removed in FFIV, then brought back for FFV.
Further, turn-based combat is not some archaic, flawed concept. While FFXIII returns to a battle style that's more akin to pre-FFXII titles, the game makes other changes that differentiates its combat from other games in the series. If you wanted to make an argument for the combat being the same from game to game, you could have stated Dragon Quest, which has only made minimal adjustments to its combat system over nine games, but are still fun to play.
It simply amazes me how many people look back to the rash of RPGs in the PS1 era that were released to cash in on FFVII's formula of success and somehow think that blip on the radar somehow still applies to how the genre as a whole is progressing today.
" @Hailinel: Fair enough, Hailinel, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time. "If I have no solid argument, then be my guest and tear it apart rather than simply say how much I'm wrong. You'd do better to prove your point that way.
Japanese people still like same turn based JRPGs and they buy those.They are the main focus,not the western audience.So,if it sells why change?
I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough*
" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering.
" @Afroman269 said:If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale." I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
" @Hailinel said:No, but you're a fucking idiot. Because the battle system in Dragon Age and the battle system in FF12 are practically identical. Fucking idiot." @Afroman269 said:If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale. "" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
Ignorant stereotyping. Quit trolling." I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "
Make a game that you think is good and people will buy it regardless of where it's from.
Bayonetta, for example, is not particularly Japanese. It is just batshit crazy. And that's what's been missing from this gen - it's a real breath of fresh air.
If a turn based RPG has a good story and good battle mechanics, then I'm all for it. (PERSONA 4!!!!!)
That said, ironically, I ended up getting the GOTY edition of Fallout 3 today. (On sale! \(^^)/ )
Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc...
" Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc... "I enjoy me some tentacle porn to be sure, but I know the difference between identifying a bad game in a particular genre and generalizing that an entire genre shares the faults of a singular game.
" Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc... "So you're speaking on behalf of all Japanese, huh. I wonder what that makes you.
" @Afroman269 said:Very well after reading more on FF12 redesigned combat system I will retract what I said and apologize for not knowing this. Thank you for pointing that out and to make this reply on par with yours I would like to add a polite fuck you." @Hailinel said:No, but you're a fucking idiot. Because the battle system in Dragon Age and the battle system in FF12 are practically identical. Fucking idiot. "" @Afroman269 said:If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale. "" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
"...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),...
"
You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P
But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them.
I think the question I always ask myself the most when this issue crops up is why JRPGs have to inherently change on a fundamental level. The industry is often so hellbent on propagating supposed innovations that the games that merely opt to make refinements to the formula are usually seen as lesser games because they lack ambition. Maybe this is just me, but if you give me the choice of playing a game that has maybe a few innovative ideas but is lackluster on the rest of the execution versus a game that knows what it is ahead of time and works off of that base to make a really sublime experience, I'm going to go with the latter game. The thing about always focusing on innovation is that too much obsession over it on either a superficial or genuine level can make the rest of the product as a whole suffer because too much was gambled on the innovation being the game's saving grace. There are a few games that can get away with that, but those are really rare exceptions, not precedents and there are within both genres that can attest to it.
So it's with that in mind that I'll announce that trying to grab my attention by saying a game is a WRPG or JRPG has the exact same effect on me: I continue to think that the game has to do more by its own merits to sell me on it. It's why I'm ultimately just as apathetic towards games like Dragon Age and Oblivion as I am with ones like Dragon Quest and Star Ocean before playing any of them. A good game is a good game by virtue of its own qualities, not by the genre it belongs in. If a game can do that and tell me why it is a game that should matter by what it personally does, then I'm into it 100 percent; I won't care if it doesn't advance its respective genre if it just accomplishes the mission it sets out to do well. Not every game is meant to rebuild the wheel like that.
If a game isn't overly innovative, then my main concern is whether or not it can contextualize the fundamentals it works off of in ways that are compelling. If there's a problem some RPGs on both ends might really have at least for me, it's not the supposed lack of innovation at all, but rather the inability for some to take those time-tested formulas and apply them in ways that are fresh and relevant today to me. Whether that is or isn't the case for you, I don't know, but it's what's personally going on with me. That's why I love games like Persona 4 so much. It's brilliant precisely because it takes those JRPG building blocks and doesn't try to start gameplay revolutions where they aren't needed; it just takes them and uses them in ways to deeply connect with the player. It's still turn-based battling, but you're doing them with a real sense of camaraderie because of the Social Link feature. If a boss has you on the ropes, you know your good bud Chie or Yosuke will have your back and come to your rescue without you needing to ask. Even outside of battling, the storytelling methods are still standard; it's just that the execution in the setting, plot, writing, and characterization are done in ways that are really relatable to me. It all has quite a lot of impact and your antics with the main plot and side stories in the Social Links end up being tied into the battling anyway, creating this really harmonious feel between all of the components. Are any of them very inventive on their own? Not really; in fact a lot of it has already been done in previous Megami Tensei and other RPGs to varying extents, but it's the way in which it's all contextualized that matters to me. With regard to Western RPGs, the same sorts of things can be said for why I have a profound love of Morrowind to this day; as a Western RPG, it knows what it's doing and accomplishes its goals in ways I find to be really fun and immersive. It might not have the same reasons for why I love something like Persona 4, but that's the point: I love it because it operates on its own terms and does it in a manner I find to be enjoyable.
It's not just that a game has features A, B, C that matter to me, but does their execution operate in a matter that resonates with me? It's an issue that all games have to deal with equally, regardless of genre, because that's ultimately the objective they have to achieve at the end of the day. Do they all succeed? That's a matter of personal opinion. Regardless of whether a game chooses the route of innovation or of refinement, as long as it's successful on its own terms that's all that matters to me. It's why I can have love for games like Persona 4 and Morrowind, Tales of Vesperia and Fallout 3, and so many other contrasting combinations equally. They all work very well as games and I feel no need to choose between one genre over the other; I care way more about the games themselves than the genre they inhabit, since a genre can't tell me about a game's intrinsic qualities at all.
But who am I kidding, right? I'll probably be labeled both a gaijin and an anti-Western communist for not ragging on either genre wholly. If it helps anyone figure out what to insult, I actually speak Japanese on an everyday basis. Have fun.
" Ahem.. "Not sure that i would call being a war hero in Mass Effect, humble origins, but I must say that the four locations that people must go to to save the world/galaxy is pretty funny.
" @Lard said:Don't have a 360 so I can't."You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),...
"
And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games.
" @xyzygy said:Given your lack of a 360, did you play the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata, or are you judging the game with the same reasoning you judge Uncharted 2?" @Lard said:Don't have a 360 so I can't. And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games. ""You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),...
"
JRPGs have tried a lot of different combat systems. You can talk about FFXII or Last Remnant for small changes, or you can talk about, say, a Grandia battle system, which was pretty damned good. Then there's the Tales battle system. The reason that you get games like Lost Odyssey coming back to the turn based system is that there are some people who like it better than the other things. Comparing FFVII to Lost Odyssey is like comparing BGII to Dragon Age. Dragon Age made a few more changes to the formula than LO did, but they're both throwbacks designed to appease people who'd gotten pissed off by newer games that deviated from a successful formula.
Now if you want to talk about the structure of the narrative between JRPGs and WRPGs, it's not a matter of stagnation. WRPGs have generally included some amount of choice over the outcome of the story since the 90s at least. JRPGs haven't. I think there are arguments for both approaches, and neither approach has really changed, save that they've gained a bit more ambition. WRPGs are trying to move beyond simple choices of good and evil into more morally ambiguous territory that has to do with appeasing a certain world-view. You may have been a messed up spikey-haired dude trying to save the world in FFVII, but the interpersonal relationships of the characters were nowhere near as sophisticated as they became by the time of FFX and Lost Odyssey.
If we want to talk about the failure of the JRPG, I think it's a culture thing. When RPGs first started getting big, it was totally Japan's game. Sure, the west had their foothold in PCs, but as we've all learned the real money was in consoles, and western companies didn't even try putting out RPGs for those. The first attempts were Diablo clones, which hardly count at all, but now that Bioware's publishing as much for consoles as it is for PCs, the competition is there. And guess what, Europeans and their descendents in North America like European-based stuff better than they like Japanese stuff, even if it is a Japanese culture that is heavily influenced but the Europeans/Americans. Not only do the European-descended gamers outnumber the Japanese, but the Japanese seem to be becoming ever-more fixated on cute, shallow things that are distinctly not what we think an RPG should be.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Anybody who would say that Enchanted Arms is better than Tales of Vesperia should lose the right to speak.
" @Lard said:PS3 version." @xyzygy said:Given your lack of a 360, did you play the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata, or are you judging the game with the same reasoning you judge Uncharted 2? "" @Lard said:Don't have a 360 so I can't. And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games. ""You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),...
"
I can't say whether or not JRPGs are evolving since I don't really play enough of them, but I will say I played 2 turn based JRPGs this year, Persona 4 and Lost Odyssey, and those were some of my best gaming experiences of the year. So some people still enjoy playing those types of games even if they haven't "evolved".
If I was to critique JRPGs though, I'd say stay away from fantasy type stories and settings for a while. Persona 4 was a breath of fresh air for me. It wasn't super realistic of course, but it was closer to a realistic setting than Lost Odyssey was. Again, I haven't played too many JRPGs lately so maybe a lot of them are doing this already.
" @Lord_Yeti said:... and Enchanted Arms doesn't?!" Anybody who would say that Enchanted Arms is better than Tales of Vesperia should lose the right to speak. "Tales games, all of them, are complete and utter shit and have been since the first one on the SNES. They represent the worst of cliches in JRPGs. "
This thread is ridiculous, and the comment from that guy at bioware was grossly misinterpreted from the very first post. He never said that there was anything wrong with jrpgs, he said that they have remained stagnant whilst wrpgs have had some level of innovation, and that stagnation is hurting the "genre".
I really don't want in on this argument because I find it's not really a debate of any kind. Most attempts to "debate" in this thread are really just blatant name-calling and poo-pooing of other's comments. But if you want to know what I think about this silly business here you go:
Honestly, the Bioware dude was right. I think that the only reason that there is a "genre" called jrpgs is because they are so similar and have stayed mostly the same since the very early ones. Go play FF or Chrono Trigger, then go play a more recent one, the ideas employed in the game are largely similar.
" @Afroman269 said:That "table" proves nothing. The stories are similar, sure. But the game themselves are completely different. Even if you ignore the setting, Balur's Gate, KOTOR and Mass Effect are all drastically different games that share very, very little in common." @CL60 said:That part was red meaning doesn't fit into the cliche. "" Ahem.. "Not sure that i would call being a war hero in Mass Effect, humble origins, but I must say that the four locations that people must go to to save the world/galaxy is pretty funny. "
Zeschuk was referring only to the limited characterization in JRPGs and not the combat system. I think his statement was taken out of context but he makes a good point. JRPGs don't give the same dialogue options that BioWare provides (its what they do best). The storyline in WRPGs are more dynamic than JRPGs and there's more roleplaying in them. There's always a feeling that you're just pushing X to keep the predestined story moving along in a JRPG rather than writing your own adventure. With that myopic point of view, yes, WRPGs have evolved a lot over the last decade.
The realtime v/s turn-based argument is entirely subjective and in the end, pointless. I prefer the constant action and feedback from realtime combat but maybe that's too hectic for you ? To be completely honest, both of them haven't changed much mechanically. The Ultima series perfected most of these mechanics ages ago. If anything, the games that are classified outside the "RPG" genre are evolving at a faster pace and making these age old mechanics irrelevant. Take a look at Modern Warfare 2 and all the custom classes/perks - that's role playing in a sense, isn't it ? Its certainly more appealing to the masses.
I have to agree. Every WRPG I've bought I've played from beginning to end. However, I have 4 or 5 JRPGs for my Xbox 360 & I tried one & quickly put it back in the case. Some of the JRPGs I've yet to take out of the shrink wrap especially after reading the reviews (like those of The Last Remnant). I even bought The Last Remnant last year for my nephew & I've never seen him play it on the Xbox either (not 1 achievement point or that it was even loaded into his xbox).
I think the Japanese need to go back & build some new tools or get with the times. I personally think they're stuck in the 90's on what they think RPG game design is all about. What people crave in an RPG have shifted since then. I don't know if JRPGs sell better in Japan. If so, well I guess the Japanese can still enjoy their own cooking, but my fires aren't being stoked for them.
I just got home from an eight hour shift and need to leave for another one in 6 hours, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm lazy and c/p a post I made earlier on my thoughts of specifically DAO." @Turambar: I disagree. Bioware's stories may not be unique, but I can't think of any recent RPG's that are. Saying that there aren't any choices with meaningful consequences is a little off imo. I think making a choice, pissing a character off, and having a character (quite possibly your favorite one) leave the game for its entirety is as big a consequence as it gets. Also, bioware's characters (other than the main character) have complexities and differences that are not seen in most JRPGs. I don't really see how there is an argument that "Bioware of all people are saying this" if they have done nothing but be creative in how their RPG's are played. "
"Your quest choices in DAO impacted nothing but what units you were able to summon during the final seige. The game tells you that what you did was significant, but the scope of it doesn't let you see first hand any of the consequences. Can DAO expand on this in future games? Yes. But the problem is the game within which you made them gains nothing from the decisions other than some minor changes to the creatures of the landscape. I'd say the only choice with any actual consequence was the mage's guild, as it fed into your choices for Redcliffe.
Your character choices are also awkward. For example, why would you ever kill the dog, or Sten, within the first hours of the game? The game has given you no reason to hate the qu'nari enough that you'd kill him (in fact, no lore has been offered for his people at all yet), and the fact that DAO is a game pretty much compels you to let them live to see what addition they give to your game play experience. If killing him (or doing almost anything that would force out a party member for that matter (I'd give Andraste's ashes a pass, but barely because you can just leave the gauntlet and switch up your party members to avoid the consequences)) opened up another section of the game, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. But it doesn't."
My criticisms, particularly with regards to the choices presented in quests can be easily extrapolated to the rest of their recent games.
However, its not inherently a better way. Karma decision usually lead you down some very cliched storylines but it does give a great sense of control to the player. The JRPG style of rigid storytelling allows them to weave some pretty crazy scenarios into their game and the humor in them has its own value.
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