BioWare co-founder: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'

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Hailinel

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#151  Edited By Hailinel
@CaptainCody said:
" @Hailinel: Hailinel, no offense but you're a weaboo, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time. "
I'm sorry.  I don't take people who use 4chan slang seriously.  If you're going to criticize my style of argument, try insulting me with something else.
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Potter9156

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#152  Edited By Potter9156
@Delta_Ass said:

" @Potter9156 said:

" JRPGs aren't evolving and WRPGs are de-evolving, partly thanks to Bioware. Yep, the RPG genre is in a pretty shitty place. "
You mean devolving, right? Cause de-evolving is kinda redundant. "
 Nope. I mean the opposite of evolving.
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Dallas_Raines

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#153  Edited By Dallas_Raines

The BioWare dude is totally correct, and many Japanese devs share his sentiments, it isn't just Keiji Inafune that expresses disapointment in the stagnation of the Japanese gaming industry. (And Capcom is doing far better than most Japanese, and that's because they know how to make games for the rest of the world and aren't afraid of going outside of Japan for developers.)
 
Also, It isn't just JRPGs that are suffering, it's the whole industry over there, partly because of the fact that Japanese gamers refuse to support an original IP ever(Here's looking at you Okami.) and also because the development studios are typically ran by old men with old ideas.
 
Anyway, weeaboos will never find faults with glorious Nippon, even if real Japanese people do.

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#154  Edited By CaptainCody
@Hailinel:
Fair enough, Hailinel, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time.    
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Hailinel

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#155  Edited By Hailinel
@Bones8677 said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Milkman said:
" He's spot on. WRPGs have passed JRPGs in almost every single aspect (barring a select few, I guess). WRPGs have figured out how to make combat fun and accessible, something JRPGs have ALWAYS struggled with. The story of WRPGs have evolved way past JRPGs. Though I'm sure some of you will say that they still enjoy the same story of spiky haired young boys fighting against an anicent reawoken evil, the majority of the world will probably disagree. "
Bullshit.  This is bullshit to the nth degree.
 
Combat is not "more accessible" in WRPGs.  For me, playing Dragon Age on anything but the lowest difficulty becomes a clusterfuck because I am terrible at real-time strategy.  Sure, I can pause the game and switch tactics that way, but that just leads me back down the path of the original Icewind Dale, and issues I had with ID's design left me unable/unwilling to finish the game.  The combat is just loaded with complications of a different sort.
 
And while I ultimately enjoyed Dragon Age, I hated Oblivion.  The skill-based leveling system was a pain to use.  The way enemy power scaling worked not only invalidated leveling, but also made the game more ludicrous over time.  Fallout 3 lacked a lot of Oblivion's worst offenses despite being ridiculed as Oblivion with guns, but at the same time it had its own problems.  The moral choices and morality are stark black and white, and very few choices made in the game have the same level of impact as the nuke in Megaton.  The idea of choice presented in the game doesn't feel natural.  It's stringent and artificial.
 
And I really wish I didn't feel it necessary to do this, but there are a number of JRPGs that don't fall into the "Teens save the world from an ancient evil" category.  (And this is by no means a complete list.  Just games I'm familiar with that I can think of off the top of my head.)
 
  • Final Fantasy IV
  • Final Fantasy VI
  • Final Fantasy VII (Most of the characters, including Cloud, are in their early/mid-twenties.  Suck it, stereotypers.)
  • The SaGa series as a whole.
  • Shin Megami Tensei:  Nocturne
  • Dragon Quest IV
  • Dragon Quest V
  • Lost Odyssey
  • Eternal Sonata
  • Torneko's Mysterious Dungeon
  • Sweet Home
  • Shin Megami Tensei:  Strange Journey
"
Um...why are you fighting against someone who is obviously exaggerating to prove a point?
 
Besides, while WRPGs innovations may have fallen short in some areas, the point is, at least WRPGs are TRYING new things. Where as JRPGs have remain very stagnate over the last decade.   All those games you've mentioned can be very interchangibly in terms of combat style and story. Japanese companies operate a "If it aint broke don't fix it" policy. Take the battle system change from Final Fantasy XII to Final Fantasy XIII, "Well a lot of people didn't like the real time combat in 12, so let's go back to the turn based combat we've had since the beginning."   Game companies all over the world are afraid to try new things for fear that it might bite them in the ass, especially in this economy. Which also explains why we have so many freakin' sequels for games coming out, because they are certain to be successful.   "
I'm fighting because the use of exaggerations and stereotypes when arguing with what's supposedly wrong with a genre does nothing but muddle the issue.
 
And do you really think that JRPGs have been stagnant for the past ten years?  Look at Final Fantasy X.  Now look at Final Fantasy XII, Eternal Sonata, Valkyrie Profile 2, and Persona 4.  All of those games were released in the past decade.  How do any of those games play exactly alike to one another?
 
And as for your FFXII to FFXIII example, that's flawed beyond belief.  Final Fantasy has always been a series that's been known for switching game mechanics up.  It's been that way since Final Fantasy II introduced a completely different leveling system that  changed how one approached battle completely in comparison to the first game.  Final Fantasy III introduced the job system, which was removed in FFIV, then brought back for FFV.
 
Further, turn-based combat is not some archaic, flawed concept.  While FFXIII returns to a battle style that's more akin to pre-FFXII titles, the game makes other changes that differentiates its combat from other games in the series.  If you wanted to make an argument for the combat being the same from game to game, you could have stated Dragon Quest, which has only made minimal adjustments to its combat system over nine games, but are still fun to play.
 
It simply amazes me how many people look back to the rash of RPGs in the PS1 era that were released to cash in on FFVII's formula of success and somehow think that blip on the radar somehow still applies to how the genre as a whole is progressing today.
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Hailinel

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#156  Edited By Hailinel
@CaptainCody said:
" @Hailinel: Fair enough, Hailinel, you will constantly defend JRPG's with no solid arguement, I fully agree with people such as Red in this thread considering the fact that JRPG's have probably sustained the most cliches for the longest time.     "
If I have no solid argument, then be my guest and tear it apart rather than simply say how much I'm wrong.  You'd do better to prove your point that way.
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#157  Edited By crystalskull2

Japanese people still like same turn based JRPGs and they buy those.They are the main focus,not the western audience.So,if it sells why change?

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Jeffsekai

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#158  Edited By Jeffsekai

Well no shit

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#159  Edited By PureRok

That's pretty hypocritical coming from BioWare.

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#160  Edited By Afroman269

I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough*

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#161  Edited By Hailinel
@Afroman269 said:
" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "
This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering.
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#162  Edited By Afroman269
@Hailinel said:
" @Afroman269 said:
" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "
This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale.
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#163  Edited By ryanwho
@Afroman269 said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Afroman269 said:
" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "
This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale. "
No, but you're a fucking idiot. Because the battle system in Dragon Age and the battle system in FF12 are practically identical. Fucking idiot.
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#164  Edited By Lard
@Afroman269 said:

" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "

Ignorant stereotyping. Quit trolling. 
 
Make a game that you think is good and people will buy it regardless of where it's from. 
 
Bayonetta, for example, is not particularly Japanese. It is just batshit crazy. And that's what's been missing from this gen - it's a real breath of fresh air. 
 
If a turn based RPG has a good story and good battle mechanics, then I'm all for it. (PERSONA 4!!!!!)
 
That said, ironically, I ended up getting the GOTY edition of Fallout 3 today. (On sale! \(^^)/ )
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#165  Edited By Nemesis

Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc...

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#166  Edited By Hailinel
@Nemesis said:
" Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc... "
I enjoy me some tentacle porn to be sure, but I know the difference between identifying a bad game in a particular genre and generalizing that an entire genre shares the faults of a singular game.
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#167  Edited By ryanwho
@Nemesis said:
" Guys no need to argue. The idiotic people who are so attached to Japanese culture won't say anything bad about JRPGs. There obsession with the Japanese is really unhealthy, and the Japanese themselves think they are weirdos. Let them be, with their hentai, tentacle porn, etc... "
So you're speaking on behalf of all Japanese, huh. I wonder what that makes you.
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#168  Edited By Afroman269
@ryanwho said:
" @Afroman269 said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Afroman269 said:
" I agree fully with what he says. So far they just focus on upping the graphics but stick with the boring turn based fighting....*cough* Final Fantasy *cough* "
This is the exact sort of ignorant stereotyping bullshit that I'm arguing against, for those of you wondering. "
If you enjoy those kinds of games then power to you because they are not my kind of games and you shitting on my comment is a great way for you to support why JRPGs are not stale. "
No, but you're a fucking idiot. Because the battle system in Dragon Age and the battle system in FF12 are practically identical. Fucking idiot. "
Very well after reading more on FF12 redesigned combat system I will retract what I said and apologize for not knowing this. Thank you for pointing that out and to make this reply on par with yours I would like to add a polite fuck you.
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#169  Edited By xyzygy
@Lard said:
"  

 ...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),... 

"

You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P 
 
But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them.
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#170  Edited By Pepsiman

I think the question I always ask myself the most when this issue crops up is why JRPGs have to inherently change on a fundamental level. The industry is often so hellbent on propagating supposed innovations that the games that merely opt to make refinements to the formula are usually seen as lesser games because they lack ambition. Maybe this is just me, but if you give me the choice of playing a game that has maybe a few innovative ideas but is lackluster on the rest of the execution versus a game that knows what it is ahead of time and works off of that base to make a really sublime experience, I'm going to go with the latter game. The thing about always focusing on innovation is that too much obsession over it on either a superficial or genuine level can make the rest of the product as a whole suffer because too much was gambled on the innovation being the game's saving grace. There are a few games that can get away with that, but those are really rare exceptions, not precedents and there are within both genres that can attest to it.
 
So it's with that in mind that I'll announce that trying to grab my attention by saying a game is a WRPG or JRPG has the exact same effect on me: I continue to think that the game has to do more by its own merits to sell me on it. It's why I'm ultimately just as apathetic towards games like Dragon Age and Oblivion as I am with ones like Dragon Quest and Star Ocean before playing any of them. A good game is a good game by virtue of its own qualities, not by the genre it belongs in. If a game can do that and tell me why it is a game that should matter by what it personally does, then I'm into it 100 percent; I won't care if it doesn't advance its respective genre if it just accomplishes the mission it sets out to do well. Not every game is meant to rebuild the wheel like that.
 
If a game isn't overly innovative, then my main concern is whether or not it can contextualize the fundamentals it works off of in ways that are compelling. If there's a problem some RPGs on both ends might really have at least for me, it's not the supposed lack of innovation at all, but rather the inability for some to take those time-tested formulas and apply them in ways that are fresh and relevant today to me. Whether that is or isn't the case for you, I don't know, but it's what's personally going on with me. That's why I love games like Persona 4 so much. It's brilliant precisely because it takes those JRPG building blocks and doesn't try to start gameplay revolutions where they aren't needed; it just takes them and uses them in ways to deeply connect with the player. It's still turn-based battling, but you're doing them with a real sense of camaraderie because of the Social Link feature. If a boss has you on the ropes, you know your good bud Chie or Yosuke will have your back and come to your rescue without you needing to ask. Even outside of battling, the storytelling methods are still standard; it's just that the execution in the setting, plot, writing, and characterization are done in ways that are really relatable to me. It all has quite a lot of impact and your antics with the main plot and side stories in the Social Links end up being tied into the battling anyway, creating this really harmonious feel between all of the components. Are any of them very inventive on their own? Not really; in fact a lot of it has already been done in previous Megami Tensei and other RPGs to varying extents, but it's the way in which it's all contextualized that matters to me. With regard to Western RPGs, the same sorts of things can be said for why I have a profound love of Morrowind to this day; as a Western RPG, it knows what it's doing and accomplishes its goals in ways I find to be really fun and immersive. It might not have the same reasons for why I love something like Persona 4, but that's the point: I love it because it operates on its own terms and does it in a manner I find to be enjoyable.
 
It's not just that a game has features A, B, C that matter to me, but does their execution operate in a matter that resonates with me? It's an issue that all games have to deal with equally, regardless of genre, because that's ultimately the objective they have to achieve at the end of the day. Do they all succeed? That's a matter of personal opinion. Regardless of whether a game chooses the route of innovation or of refinement, as long as it's successful on its own terms that's all that matters to me. It's why I can have love for games like Persona 4 and Morrowind, Tales of Vesperia and Fallout 3, and so many other contrasting combinations equally. They all work very well as games and I feel no need to choose between one genre over the other; I care way more about the games themselves than the genre they inhabit, since a genre can't tell me about a game's intrinsic qualities at all.
 
But who am I kidding, right? I'll probably be labeled both a gaijin and an anti-Western communist for not ragging on either genre wholly. If it helps anyone figure out what to insult, I actually speak Japanese on an everyday basis. Have fun.

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#171  Edited By CL60
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#172  Edited By Afroman269
@CL60 said:
" Ahem.. "
Not sure that i would call being a war hero in Mass Effect, humble origins, but I must say that the four locations that people must go to to save the world/galaxy is pretty funny.
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#173  Edited By ryanwho

Boring cliche bullshit for the weabos with the lolicon and such at the 4chan

No Caption Provided
Revolutionary innovation. Pioneering.

No Caption Provided
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#174  Edited By Lard
@xyzygy said:
" @Lard said:
"  

 ...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),... 

"
You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P  But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "
Don't have a 360 so I can't.
 
And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games.
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#175  Edited By kmdrkul
@Red said:
" He's right.
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#176  Edited By Hailinel
@Lard said:
" @xyzygy said:
" @Lard said:
"  

 ...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),... 

"
You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P  But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "
Don't have a 360 so I can't.  And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games. "
Given your lack of a 360, did you play the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata, or are you judging the game with the same reasoning you judge Uncharted 2?
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#177  Edited By veektarius

JRPGs have tried a lot of different combat systems.  You can talk about FFXII or Last Remnant for small changes, or you can talk about, say, a Grandia battle system, which was pretty damned good.  Then there's the Tales battle system.  The reason that you get games like Lost Odyssey coming back to the turn based system is that there are some people who like it better than the other things.   Comparing FFVII to Lost Odyssey is like comparing BGII to Dragon Age.  Dragon Age made a few more changes to the formula than LO did, but they're both throwbacks designed to appease people who'd gotten pissed off by newer games that deviated from a successful formula.

Now if you want to talk about the structure of the narrative between JRPGs and WRPGs, it's not a matter of stagnation.  WRPGs have generally included some amount of choice over the outcome of the story since the 90s at least.  JRPGs haven't.  I think there are arguments for both approaches, and neither approach has really changed, save that they've gained a bit more ambition.  WRPGs are trying to move beyond simple choices of good and evil into more morally ambiguous territory that has to do with appeasing a certain world-view.  You may have been a messed up spikey-haired dude trying to save the world in FFVII, but the interpersonal relationships of the characters were nowhere near as sophisticated as they became by the time of FFX and Lost Odyssey.   
 
If we want to talk about the failure of the JRPG, I think it's a culture thing.  When RPGs first started getting big, it was totally Japan's game.  Sure, the west had their foothold in PCs, but as we've all learned the real money was in consoles, and western companies didn't even try putting out RPGs for those.  The first attempts were Diablo clones, which hardly count at all, but now that Bioware's publishing as much for consoles as it is for PCs, the competition is there.  And guess what, Europeans and their descendents in North America like European-based stuff better than they like Japanese stuff, even if it is a Japanese culture that is heavily influenced but the Europeans/Americans.  Not only do the European-descended gamers outnumber the Japanese, but the Japanese seem to be becoming ever-more fixated on cute, shallow things that are distinctly not what we think an RPG should be. 
 
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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#178  Edited By xyzygy
@ryanwho: I wouldn't necessary call that revolutionary... they're just taking a plain old tactics system and adding a bunch of options for your CPU controlled characters.
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#179  Edited By Torrim

Rather than argument on semantics as to whether he's right or not, I'll chime in just to say that there's a definate decline in what RPGs from Japan used to be, or at least how much of an impact with critics and gamers they had.

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#180  Edited By CL60
@Afroman269 said:
" @CL60 said:
" Ahem.. "
Not sure that i would call being a war hero in Mass Effect, humble origins, but I must say that the four locations that people must go to to save the world/galaxy is pretty funny. "
That part was red meaning doesn't fit into the cliche.
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#181  Edited By Dallas_Raines

Anybody who would say that Enchanted Arms is better than Tales of Vesperia should lose the right to speak.

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#182  Edited By Lard
@Hailinel said:
" @Lard said:
" @xyzygy said:
" @Lard said:
"  

 ...this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms),... 

"
You totally lost me there. Folklore is as about as much an RPG as Zelda, and... Enchanted Arms? How about putting Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, ANYTHING there instead? :P  But yeah. Even though I still love JRPGs to death I can see why a lot of people have grown sick of them. "
Don't have a 360 so I can't.  And Eternal Sonata was terrible. As are Tales games. "
Given your lack of a 360, did you play the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata, or are you judging the game with the same reasoning you judge Uncharted 2? "
PS3 version.
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#183  Edited By Lard
@Lord_Yeti said:
" Anybody who would say that Enchanted Arms is better than Tales of Vesperia should lose the right to speak. "
Tales games, all of them, are complete and utter shit and have been since the first one on the SNES.
 
They represent the worst of cliches in JRPGs.
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#184  Edited By dethfish

I can't say whether or not JRPGs are evolving since I don't really play enough of them, but I will say I played 2 turn based JRPGs this year, Persona 4 and Lost Odyssey, and those were some of my best gaming experiences of the year. So some people still enjoy playing those types of games even if they haven't "evolved". 
 
If I was to critique JRPGs though, I'd say stay away from fantasy type stories and settings for a while. Persona 4 was a breath of fresh air for me. It wasn't super realistic of course, but it was closer to a realistic setting than Lost Odyssey was. Again, I haven't played too many JRPGs lately so maybe a lot of them are doing this already.

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#185  Edited By xyzygy
@Lard said:
" @Lord_Yeti said:
" Anybody who would say that Enchanted Arms is better than Tales of Vesperia should lose the right to speak. "
Tales games, all of them, are complete and utter shit and have been since the first one on the SNES.  They represent the worst of cliches in JRPGs. "
... and Enchanted Arms doesn't?! 
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Lard

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#186  Edited By Lard

Nah
Good sountrack
Semi-interesting combat. 
Less annoying characters than ES. The game just worked for me.

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Ubiquitous

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#187  Edited By Ubiquitous

This thread is ridiculous, and the comment from that guy at bioware was grossly misinterpreted from the very first post. He never said that there was anything wrong with jrpgs, he said that they have remained stagnant whilst wrpgs have had some level of innovation, and that stagnation is hurting the "genre".  
 
 I really don't want in on this argument because I find it's not really a debate of any kind. Most attempts to "debate" in this thread are really just blatant name-calling and poo-pooing of other's comments. But if you want to know what I think about this silly business here you go:
 
 Honestly, the Bioware dude was right. I think that the only reason that there is a "genre" called jrpgs is because they are so similar and have stayed mostly the same since the very early ones. Go play FF or Chrono Trigger, then go play a more recent one, the ideas employed in the game are largely similar.

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lucas_kelly

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#188  Edited By lucas_kelly

Coming from a company who uses the same plot structure and engine for all their games.

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delta_ass

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#189  Edited By delta_ass

They used the same engine for all their games? Really? Please tell me more, guy with anime character for an avatar.

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Nasar7

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#190  Edited By Nasar7

Coming from Bioware, that's rich. I don't see anything innovative from them since KOTOR 1.

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Milkman

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#191  Edited By Milkman
@CL60 said:
" @Afroman269 said:
" @CL60 said:
" Ahem.. "
Not sure that i would call being a war hero in Mass Effect, humble origins, but I must say that the four locations that people must go to to save the world/galaxy is pretty funny. "
That part was red meaning doesn't fit into the cliche. "
That "table" proves nothing. The stories are similar, sure. But the game themselves are completely different. Even if you ignore the setting, Balur's Gate, KOTOR and Mass Effect are all drastically different games that share very, very little in common.
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#192  Edited By Milkman
@lucas_kelly said:
" Coming from a company who uses the same plot structure and engine for all their games. "
Wow, BioWare must be technical fucking geniuses if they were able to make KOTOR and Mass Effect on the same engine.
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spacetrucking

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#193  Edited By spacetrucking

Zeschuk was referring only to the limited characterization in JRPGs and not the combat system. I think his statement was taken out of context but he makes a good point. JRPGs don't give the same dialogue options that BioWare provides (its what they do best). The storyline in WRPGs are more dynamic than JRPGs and there's more roleplaying in them. There's always a feeling that you're just pushing X to keep the predestined story moving along in a JRPG rather than writing your own adventure. With that myopic point of view, yes, WRPGs have evolved a lot over the last decade.
 
The realtime v/s turn-based argument is entirely subjective and in the end, pointless. I prefer the constant action and feedback from realtime combat but maybe that's too hectic for you ? To be completely honest, both of them haven't changed much mechanically. The Ultima series perfected most of these mechanics ages ago. If anything, the games that are classified outside the "RPG" genre are evolving at a faster pace and making these age old mechanics irrelevant. Take a look at Modern Warfare 2 and all the custom classes/perks - that's role playing in a sense, isn't it ? Its certainly more appealing to the masses.

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Lind_L_Taylor

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#194  Edited By Lind_L_Taylor

I have to agree.  Every WRPG I've bought I've played from beginning to end.  However, I have 4 or 5 JRPGs for my Xbox 360 & I tried one & quickly put it back in the case.  Some of the JRPGs I've yet to take out of the shrink wrap especially after reading the reviews (like those of The Last Remnant).  I even bought The Last Remnant last year for my nephew & I've never seen him play it on the Xbox either (not 1 achievement point or that it was even loaded into his xbox).
 
I think the Japanese need to go back & build some new tools or get with the times.  I personally think they're stuck in the 90's on what they think RPG game design is all about.  What people crave in an RPG have shifted since then.  I don't know if JRPGs sell better in Japan.  If so, well I guess the Japanese can still enjoy their own cooking, but my fires aren't being stoked for them.

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Undeadpool

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#195  Edited By Undeadpool
@Turambar:
Well I was planning on getting back to it during the lean times, so that's good to know.
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#196  Edited By Turambar
@imhuntad said:

" @Turambar: I disagree. Bioware's stories may not be unique, but I can't think of any recent RPG's that are. Saying that there aren't any choices with meaningful consequences is a little off imo. I think making a choice, pissing a character off, and having a character (quite possibly your favorite one) leave the game for its entirety is as big a consequence as it gets. Also, bioware's characters (other than the main character) have complexities and differences that are not seen in most JRPGs. I don't really see how there is an argument that "Bioware of all people are saying this" if they have done nothing but be creative in how their RPG's are played. "

I just got home from an eight hour shift and need to leave for another one in 6 hours, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm lazy and c/p a post I made earlier on my thoughts of specifically DAO.
 
"Your quest choices in DAO impacted nothing but what units you were able to summon during the final seige.  The game tells you that what you did was significant, but the scope of it doesn't let you see first hand any of the consequences.  Can DAO expand on this in future games?  Yes.  But the problem is the game within which you made them gains nothing from the decisions other than some minor changes to the creatures of the landscape.  I'd say the only choice with any actual consequence was the mage's guild, as it fed into your choices for Redcliffe.
 
Your character choices are also awkward.  For example, why would you ever kill the dog, or Sten, within the first hours of the game?  The game has given you no reason to hate the qu'nari enough that you'd kill him (in fact, no lore has been offered for his people at all yet), and the fact that DAO is a game pretty much compels you to let them live to see what addition they give to your game play experience.  If killing him (or doing almost anything that would force out a party member for that matter (I'd give Andraste's ashes a pass, but barely because you can just leave the gauntlet and switch up your party members to avoid the consequences)) opened up another section of the game, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.  But it doesn't."
 
My criticisms, particularly with regards to the choices presented in quests can be easily extrapolated to the rest of their recent games. 
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Turambar

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#197  Edited By Turambar
@Milkman said:
KOTOR and Mass Effect are drastically different games that share very, very little in common.
Combat aside, really now?  Really?
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TheGreatGuero

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#198  Edited By TheGreatGuero

Yeah, I would agree with that, but I don't like Japanese RPGS anyway.

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Turambar

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#199  Edited By Turambar
@Killjoy: I don't think the point in question should be whether WRPGs have been evolving more than JRPGs.  The answer to that is pretty clear.  The question should be more whether the degree of evolution WRPGs have experienced gives their latest incarnations the right to make claims to some of the common things that people now attach to them: meaningful choices, emotional engagements.  And on the other side of the question: whether the predestined nature of a JRPG deserves the cries of inherent inferiority that people attaches to it.
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#200  Edited By spacetrucking
@Turambar: WRPGs can probably claim ownership of all the moral choices in games because they were the driving force behind this concept for the past decade or so. Now every game (even non-RPGs) has them but it was Western RPGs like Ultima and Fallout that started this trend and rightly deserve the credit.
 
However, its not inherently a better way. Karma decision usually lead you down some very cliched storylines but it does give a great sense of control to the player. The JRPG style of rigid storytelling allows them to weave some pretty crazy scenarios into their game and the humor in them has its own value.