Democracy isn't a form of government

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Suicrat

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#1  Edited By Suicrat

'Democracy' is a means of electing the people who compose a government, and in some cases, whether particular laws should be passed; but it is not a form of government. A government's form is dictated by its constitution, its common law tradition, or by its supreme ruler, none of which are ever composed 'Democratically'. Even in the case of governments giving their citizens the opportunity to vote on a Constitution (a la the EU), if they don't like the referendum returned by the people, they'll just ask them the question till they give the 'right' answer. Democracy is a vacuous term, and certainly not an object of political value in its own right.

Why did I post this? Mostly to do with the two threads comparing democracy and monarchy. While Monarchy is a form of government, democracy can still exist underneath that though. (Proof of that is the much-esteemed British Parliament.)

We all know masturbatory political discourse is the most entertaining thing about this website, right?

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natetodamax

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#2  Edited By natetodamax

You're not a form of government.

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jkz

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#3  Edited By jkz
Suicrat said:
We all know masturbatory political discourse is the most entertaining thing about this website, right?
That's all I needed to read in the OP
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addictedtopinescent

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Voxel said:
You're not a form of government.
And your avatar proves Jeff is :P 
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Lies

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#5  Edited By Lies
Voxel said:
You're not a form of government.
Your face isn't a form of government.
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natetodamax

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#6  Edited By natetodamax
Lies said:
Voxel said: You're not a form of government. Your face isn't a form of government. [more]
Your mom.....aw, whatever.
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toowalrus

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#7  Edited By toowalrus
Lies said:
Voxel said: You're not a form of government. Your face isn't a form of government. [more]
I form-of-government... YOUR MOM!
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Systech

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#8  Edited By Systech

lol wut

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cspiffo

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#9  Edited By cspiffo

Wow did this thread devolve fast...LOL!

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Suicrat

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#10  Edited By Suicrat

I feel the need to respond to natetodamax's important input:

Your face's mom's preferred form of government isn't a form of government.


Honestly, I wouldn't mind at all if this thread devolved into into a string of 'your _______' quips, so let's do it!

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natetodamax

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#11  Edited By natetodamax
Suicrat said:
I feel the need to respond to natetodamax's important input:Your face's mom's preferred form of government isn't a form of ... [more]
Doing so would attract MB and would therefore warrant a lock on this topic.
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Suicrat

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#12  Edited By Suicrat

That's why we won't tell him.

GOD!

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Jayge_

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#13  Edited By Jayge_
Suicrat said:
That's why we won't tell him.GOD!
Yes, my son?
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Suicrat

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#14  Edited By Suicrat

No, not you the one with the beard and six fingers.

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RetroIce4

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#15  Edited By RetroIce4

Your mom isn't a form of Government. LOL, MOM JOKES!

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cspiffo

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#16  Edited By cspiffo
Suicrat ,
So...You want that guy for the Princess Bride then?
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Suicrat

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#17  Edited By Suicrat
@cspiffo:
While I like cheeseburgers, I prefer banquet burgers.

So, no.
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addictedtopinescent

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Suicrat said:
No, not you the one with the beard and six fingers.
So what do you want from me ?
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cspiffo

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#19  Edited By cspiffo
Suicrat,

Dude,  I think you need to narrow your search down a bit...
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Suicrat

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#20  Edited By Suicrat
@addictedtopinescent: Well, if you can keep the mods from locking this bastion of democracy, then do so. Amen.
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addictedtopinescent

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@Suicrat: I can try, by not posting in it it 
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StarFoxA

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#22  Edited By StarFoxA

Giant Bomb, your one stop source for intelligent discussion. ;D

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Dr_Feelgood38

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#24  Edited By Dr_Feelgood38
StarFoxA said:
Giant Bomb, your one stop source for intelligent discussion. ;D
I prefer that joke to be reserved for 4chan...
No Caption Provided

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Ineedaname

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#25  Edited By Ineedaname

In Soviet Russia, government is yo'.

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lilburtonboy7489

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#26  Edited By lilburtonboy7489

the dictionary disagrees with you:


1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections2: a political unit that has a democratic government
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crusader8463

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#27  Edited By crusader8463

Democracy is joke. Just look at how Darth Sidous does it in the star wars movies/novels/comics or how Dart Caedus does it in the legacy novels. Minus the force trickery all democracy will be converted to a communist type reigm. Sadly any form of leadership is easily manipulated by the greedy or power hungry. If enough effort and education is used.

And yes i did just use star wars to define world politics. Star Wars is a way of life bitches ^_^ b

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RHCPfan24

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#28  Edited By RHCPfan24

What the hell is going on here?!

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lilburtonboy7489

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#29  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
RHCPfan24 said:
What the hell is going on here?!
  

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Suicrat

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#30  Edited By Suicrat
lilburtonboy7489 said:
the dictionary disagrees with you:1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b: a government ... [more]
Well thankfully there is no such thing as THE dictionary. But it's no surprise that A dictionary agrees with me.

Also, neither of those definitions speak to the structure or form of government, so you're not entirely right. Just because you found a couple of definitions of the word 'democracy' that have the word 'government' in the body text doesn't mean that my point that 'democracy' is a formless concept is negated.
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jakob187

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#31  Edited By jakob187

Suicrat isn't the form of a name, but you don't see us calling it out!

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singular

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#32  Edited By singular

So what would the goverment form of Canada would be if not democratic?

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Suicrat

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#33  Edited By Suicrat
@SinGulaR: Parliamentary Constitutional Monarchy.

The fact that the members of parliament are elected 'democratically' is but a small part of how the government is composed. Considering that the executive is unelected, half the legislature is unelected, and the judiciary is entirely unelected.
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deactivated-596b8044e5f9a

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Yeah democracy' s shit, but at least we get to see Gordon Brown shaking in fear:

  

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Gunner

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#35  Edited By Gunner
Suicrat said:
'Democracy' is a means of electing the people who compose a government, and in some cases, whether particular laws should ... [more]
Democracy is used in a from of government, I was only comparing monarchy to democracy because each has changed so much over the course of their existence that they dont actually mean what they ment when they were first established in said countries.

i am very aware that democracy is not a form of government.
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ManlyBeast

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#36  Edited By ManlyBeast

mmmmm boobs

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#37  Edited By donwoogie
Suicrat said:
'Democracy' is a means of electing the people who compose a government, and in some cases, whether particular laws should ... [more]
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those other that have been tried"  ~Winston Churchill

I like to think he means Democracy is not ideal, but you've got to stick with what you got until something better comes along.
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Suicrat

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#38  Edited By Suicrat
@donwoogie:
Whoa now, don, I ain't the subject of Lennon's "You say you want a Revolution"

I was just saying democracy on its own is formless
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#39  Edited By donwoogie
Suicrat said:
@donwoogie: Whoa now, don, I ain't the subject of Lennon's "You say you want a Revolution"I was just saying democracy ... [more]
Okay, but surely, when regulations are passed on the House of Lords, they are voted on by democratically elected MPs.

PS:  Anyone heard about Proportional Representation possibly getting introduced in the UK?
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ohmagnus

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#40  Edited By ohmagnus

FORM OF- a GOVERNMENT!

now you may lock it

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lilburtonboy7489

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#41  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
Suicrat said:
lilburtonboy7489 said: the dictionary disagrees with you:1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b: ... [more]
How many dictionary definition does your higness require? I can guarentee that all dictionaries will say that it is a form of government. But since you say that it's not, it must not be. 

No, they don't speak of structure of government, It simply says that it IS a form of government. That's all. Which is exactly contradictory to the title of this topic. So yes, it does negate your point that democracy is formless, because the definiteion of democracy is that it is a form of government. And since this topic is purely a semantics debate, the dictionary rules over opinion. 

But to play along, democracy establishes government. In a direct democracy, everyone votes on every issue. The government is whatever the majority says it is. The people are the means of establishing government. They vote for certain things, and those things are then put into law. This is called a democratic form of government. 
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Suicrat

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#42  Edited By Suicrat
@lilburtonboy7489:
Structure and form are synonymous in the political and philosophic sense, if we're talking about definitions, Burt. And when we're talking about political philosophy, which we are in this thread (And we're also making a bunch of your ______ jokes, though that seemed to stop) we need to consult, not just any old web-based dictionary, but a dictionary of philosophic terms.

Take, for example, my Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (ISBN 0-19-861013-0), under the heading democracy, is the following text:
democracy (Greek, rule by the people)
In Greek thought, rule by the citizens in general (nevertheless excluding women and of course slaves) in contrast to government by the rich and aristocratic. In modern society sovereignty of the people in general, expressed not directly by a vote on individual questions, but through representatives. Questions arise whether various mechanisms ensure that decision-making authentically answers to the people, or serves their interest (see also general will). The problem of delimiting a democratic constitution encounters these and other difficulties; critics suggest that political democracy is hollow unless accompanied by power in other spheres, especially the area of economics.
Now this is a pretty long-winded meditation on the origin of the word democracy, and how it's applied to day in a philosophic and political sense, but there are a couple key words to be pointed out, primarily 'mechanisms' and 'hollow', both of which tie into the point I'm trying to make about democracy. It is not a form of government, but a mechanism of government. It is how the ranks of legislators and executives are replenished, it is how injustices are rationalized, and it is hollow unless some non-democratic entity gives it form, and the example pointed to in this definition is the sphere of economics. People who allegedly adhere to the general principle of 'sovereignty of the people' will harness the economic output of the people to give their own conceptions of democracy form, but on their own they are empty.

Why can't we just be friends, Burt?
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#43  Edited By The_Tolman

shhhhhh dick chenny might hear you. he'll kill us all. once he got his first taste of blood, his thurst can never be quenched.

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justinnotjason

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#44  Edited By justinnotjason

Well just so you know, America isn't a democracy. It's a republic.

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KaosAngel

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#45  Edited By KaosAngel

People shouldn't fear their government.  The government should fear it's people.

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daniel_beck_90

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#46  Edited By daniel_beck_90

Wow , I just can not believe you said that . Why do you think many consider United States of America as the number one country  ? That is simply because USA is the greatest democracy in the world and even though the American people can not choose every person of power by voting , their ability to choose their governor and president is quite enough . Democracy has proven to be effective and there are millions of examples that can back this up .

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clubsandwich

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#47  Edited By clubsandwich

your mom is so fat that she is a government.

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Suicrat

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#48  Edited By Suicrat
@daniel_beck_90: I don't know why this thread got bumped, but I have to respond to this comment in particular.

This thread has nothing to do with the efficacy of democratic mechanisms of governments, but to illustrate that it is not formal, in the philosophic sense of the word. See my above post on that issue).

This thread was posted in response to three threads sardonically taking stabs at Nigeria's, Britain's and America's 'forms' of government. 2 of them seemed to imply that democracy is a form of government, which, as I've said, I have illustrated this is not the case.
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#49  Edited By Food

Democracy is a form of government where everyone votes on each individual issue that comes up.  No democracies exist today because that system is wildly impractical on a scale larger than the Greek city states where the concept originated (although maybe the internet will one day make democracy feasible again).  The government of the united states is a democratic republic.

So you're wrong.  Democracy is a real form of government, it just isn't used anywhere these days.

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Suicrat

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#50  Edited By Suicrat
@Food: "You're wrong, it's real, it just doesn't exist" is not the most coherent of arguments.

A government cannot be brought into existence democratically. It has never it happened, it will never happen. The will of the majority has never brought about a government. The will of a small but powerful minority has brought many governments into existence. After these non-democratic entities form a state, then they attach democratic mechanisms to their previously-existing structure to appeal to the subjects of that state -- that is, those people dwelling within the boundaries of the state, but the non-democratic form still exists overtop of those mechanisms.

A perfect example of this is suffrage not happening in the U.S. till the 20th century, or the European Union's most powerful body (the European Commission) created non-democratically, and then building an elected parliament underneath it to fill its legislative ranks.

Democracy is an impossible dream, that is, if we are to perceive it as a form of government that can exist on its own.