Slag's forum posts

#1 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@slag: From what I've seen, MOBAs have had the same growth as FPS games. It used to be that any first-person shooter that was released was immediately labeled a Doom clone, sort of like how all MOBAs were, for a time, just considered clones of the original Defense of the Ancients Warcraft III mod. Even getting people to accept MOBA as vernacular was a bit of a struggle at first. It's definitely become its own genre at this point.

That's the parallel I had in mind too and one I've been thinking about for a number of years. I always kind of wondered at what moment does a genre ,well..., become a genre. Whenever that moment was for MOBAs, I think it happened a while ago. Maybe as early as 2009 when LoL was released, possibly as late as last year when DOTA 2 was officially released. More likely sometime in between.

I've been playing DotA/DOTA 2 since the DotA Allstars days, so it's been really interesting to watch a genre get created right before my eyes.

I think part of the issue with getting MOBA as the accepted name was that MOBA was a very obviously calculated corporate label slapped on a very grassroots community, even if it was done by insiders per say. But no matter how you feel about it, I think it's pretty clear what name won out.

#2 Edited by Slag (4044 posts) -

@joshwent said:

@slag said:

Yeah I'm not crazy about this trend, I think it incentivizes the wrong behavior and will encourage/pressure more devs to ship games too early.

Do you mean that it encourages devs to release their game as a paid alpha/beta too early? Because when it comes to "shipping" I think early access poses the opposite problem. That devs satiated with having some money flowing in will just keep adding and adding until the game becomes an unstable mess.

Multiple devs over the years on GB have talked about "feature creep". That when the folks designing a game have unlimited resources they tend to go too big and reach too high, potentially bloating a game. So the job of the producer/publisher is in some ways that of an editor, cutting out the fat to make a concise, streamlined experience.

Early Access disrupts that ideally beneficial restriction, allowing feature creep to drag devs down into a never ending pit of iteration on just one project.

Not exactly . I apologize I was being lazy with the way I described it. We are more or less on the same page I think,

I meant it changes the competitive landscape to where incomplete or poor games are given a major Cash Flow advantage (by getting their money significantly quicker) over more polished and properly edited games. In essence they are being rewarded for not doing as good of a job as their competitors (whether that be quality of product or quality of their financial backing).

So that puts a Doublefine or a Blizzard style slow iteration high quality high polish developer potentially in a bad position with publishers/investors, who always want to rush products out the door as soon as possible so that can get as a quick a return on their money as possible. Waiting to ship a product "when it's done" becomes a tougher sell, when Accounting see games like Rust hit it big in early access.

And it leads to problems for the devs themselves like you mentioned with the implied loss of creative control due to consumer pressure which lead to things like Feature creep as you mentioned or maybe other subtle issues like going with a plot thread you might have second thoughts etc because it's already out there emotionally in the consumer's mind etc, possible brand problems if the initial version of the release is bad (how many reviewers are going to re-review an Early Access Game when it's actually released? First impression could very well be last impression for many), damaged consumer trust in digital games as the lower quality control can allow fly by night types to put their inferior games out there more easily and perhaps having their next projects be underfunded by publishers who expect them to raise money in Early Access among others.

End result is the we as consumers will probably end up with more worse products (either rushed, lower quality, poorly edited incomplete etc) since it's rewarding the wrong kind of product.

There's value in curation, most retailers know this. Valve imo is not doing their customers or developer partners any favors by letting them sell products not really ready for public consumption.

Valve seems to be struggling with curation/discoverability issues a lot lately.

#3 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

Depends on the situation and where it happens. Sometimes I get involved, sometimes I don't.

I try to think about what's the best way to be helpful to whoever it's being directed at and what they'd like me to do. Don't always get that right, but I figure that's the best approach.

If in the very rare case it's directed at me, I just ignore it.

There is no one size fits all answer for this I know of.

#4 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

I agree with @truthtellah, start with Xenogears.

These games are often very dense, and the more background info you have the more sense they will make. Each iteration does have some standalone potential (except maybe Xenosaga II and III), but having that creative background I found helpful.

#5 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

@jadegl said:

@slag said:

@patrickklepek said:

Oh wow, you are linking stuff from our own community now Patrick?

That's very cool!

I'm honestly astounded that I made Worth Reading and this week's Community Spotlight. I never think anyone reads my stuff, so to see people actually saying "Hey read this!" it's blowing my mind.

I think it's awesome that the community members are getting featured. I know I can't read everything that everyone posts, but having a curated article like the Community Spotlight or seeing members here is great and makes me check out stuff I may not have even considered looking at because maybe it's about a game I don't play or something. But if it's a good read, it's a good read.

Hah! You are too modest, but I suppose that modesty is also part of why people like your thoughts as much as they do. IMO you certainly more than earned the shoutout, you are one of the very best posters of our community.

For sure @zombiepie does a really fantastic job with his community spotlight and doesn't get nearly enough credit for the wonderful weekly spotlights he puts out. The duder is incredibly thorough and like clockwork every week.


#6 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

Ain't my thing.

But if it's yours, more power to you.

#7 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

I think about 15-20% of them will be finished.

Yeah I'm not crazy about this trend, I think it incentivizes the wrong behavior and will encourage/pressure more devs to ship games too early.

#8 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

@jeff said:

It's worth considering, for sure. The genre seems defined enough now that it wouldn't necessarily erupt into full-on battles about what is or isn't a MOBA.

Ideally we'd get to a point where the genre pages are fleshed out in a way that allows for a wiki component so that your work on the concept page would have a place to live.

Fair enough, Thanks Jeff!

Figured the wiki might be going into uncharted waters with this one, to my knowledge there has been no new genres since 2008 besides MOBA.

Oh while I very much appreciate the thought, please don't worry about my work on the page. If deleting it is the right call for the overall benefit of the wiki, I'm totally fine with that. It probably could use a major rewrite/update anyway given the events of the past couple years anyway.

#9 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

@nuclearwinter: thanks for the reply!

Yeah That makes sense. I figured this might have been a staff level type question, new genres don't pop up everyday and I imagine this might be harder to change than most requests of this nature. wasn't sure where to put this, hopefully this was the right forum for it.

Just wanted to get the conversation started

#10 Edited by Slag (4044 posts) -

I think a more interesting question might be what is your least favorite, because dang were there a lot of great tracks back then. It's really hard to gow rong with many NES games.

Kinda hard to top Mega Man II start to finish though.

Ah Heck Barkerville was pretty good too