TruthTellah's forum posts

#1 Posted by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@rorie said:

@milkman said:

I may have mentioned this in an earlier thread today but my hope from all this is some sort of formal response from the GB dudes. And not just Patrick. Whether anyone realizes it or not, the Giant Bomb community is a direct reflection of the ideals of the Giant Bomb staff. When you stay silent on things like this, people are going to fill in that silence themselves and interpret it however they want. I get why Jeff and most of the other guys take a "stay out of it" stance with stuff like this and that's their right. But if you want the community to be less "toxic" or whatever, you need to speak out.

I'm working on something but I want to make sure that whatever I write is looked over by other staff members before I post it. Throwing gasoline on a fire is not going to help anyone at this point. Hopefully it'll go up tomorrow.

That's good to hear, Rorie. And while I'm hesitant to bring it up, I think it's worth mentioning that many people seem to only care about what Jeff in particular has to say about things. When Patrick has stood up against things in the past, many have dismissed it as not really representing the views of the site(aka. the head honcho, Jeff).

I appreciate all you continue to do in dealing with this, but in my opinion, if a staff statement is going to be made, Jeff weighing in would be the best way for most people to accept it. He's basically the face of Giant Bomb, and while his tweet about this was helpful, him personally being clear on this so that there is no getting around it would mean a lot to me and many members here.

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#2 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@marokai said:

@goku13k said:

@turboman said:

So........

I don't want to start a new thread over this, but can we (as a community) get together and try to send some sort of nice gesture to Samantha Allen for the shit she went through today? Like some kind of thing to show our apology for a couple of dickheads that exist (from the forums and from 4chan)?

I hate how the people that are being blamed are the "Giant Bomb community" when I know that our community is filled with amazing generous people.

I completely disagree with her just about 100% of the time, but I feel truly sorry for what she had to go through today and I think the community can come up with something to show our condolences.

Fuck yeah, this. +1

I would happily participate in something like that. I genuinely wish for her to understand that even if we disagree with her ideas, we should be able to support and respect her as a person.

I would support this. Regardless of whether this was GB members or not, it would still be good to express kindness and support when people have used the name of this site in harming her. I don't care if anyone here thinks she "deserved" it; she didn't. We can disagree with her on many things and still feel for the crappy way in which people have treated her.

I'm not quite sure what we can do, but I'd be on board with a shared gesture supportive toward her.

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#4 Posted by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@marokai said:

@truthtellah said:

@marokai: This is definitely part of what I was talking about in my recent thread about basic respect. To have a chance at co-existence and discussion, we establish basic levels of consideration and rules for being around others, and on Giant Bomb, those are embodied specifically in the rules and more generally in the underlying culture here. One of our continued challenges is when gender or social criticism are at all involved; things can quickly get out of hand and many otherwise decent folks show the worst that they can offer.

In this particular case, I do believe we would be remiss to not recognize that it has been relatively one-sided. I think it's reasonable for us to lament how out of hand things have been, and the overreacting here has made a lot of very little. A few people should be able to ask about diversity and not have things descend into what happened today. Clearly this is a real challenge for our community.

I definitely think it's impossible to seriously deny that there's been more aggression coming from one side than another throughout all this, and that's important to look into and sort out (and seriously, @rorie, you're a saint) but it's also very important for people to keep in mind that while the frustration and lashing out from the diversity "side" of this (I hate that this has been segmented into camps, now, when everyone seems to agree on like 95% of what's going on here) is understandable, it's still not helpful, or perhaps justifiable, to be lashing out at people regardless. It's just not positively contributing, no matter who you are.

I think something that frustrates me more than most other issues at play here is that, in the past, Samantha Allen has often accused people of trying to diminish her feelings by "tone policing" her. There is a certain warrior mindset going on that isn't lifting up the conversation very much. We need to understand that all of us, pro and anti, aren't being suffocated out of the conversation just because people are encouraging us to speak a little softer and not being violently angry all the time. We're just trying to get the conversation to inside-voice levels.

I think that gets into some bigger issues about power dynamics. That's a tough one to address without getting woefully off topic, but, as an aside, I do think we have to consider the factors which lead to our personal standards of discussion. Historically, there is reason to believe that the powerful(or privileged) have been the ones who primarily define reasonable expression, and that means there may be inherent parts of such standards which limit the weak, oppressed, or wronged from effectively expressing themselves. Thus an impetus amongst many to not limit themselves to such standards when personally expressing feelings on oppressive factors.

Yet, that's somewhat different from what we're doing here. Coming together on a forum, in community, to interact and discuss things. The act of coming here and engaging with people means you are taking part in the rules and culture here. So, as you said, it's natural for us to encourage civil discourse. When the point is not to just be making statements but directly engage with fellow members, it makes sense for us to encourage standards amongst ourselves to help everyone be able to discuss things on a similar playing field.

In talking here, effectiveness must be a factor, as the intent is to talk to one another and not just talk at them. We -can- do better in this, and while things have improved in some ways, instances like this make it clearer that we still have a lot to overcome. I'm encouraged that it seems to have gotten the staff and mods' attention, and hopefully we can continue to work together to improve discussion of more challenging topics around here.

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#5 Posted by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@joshwent said:

In any of these threads, a few asshole apples can ruin the bunch, and I've seen it happen more than less. And it's still a problem (obviously). But the folks here who remain after the ignorance smoke clears are all amazing, and although I'll never truly know any of you as people, my life has been undoubtedly enriched by this experience.

That's the real Giant Bomb "community".

So it really breaks my heart to see folks in the wider game's press berate us, but even more to see folks in these boards pushed away. I can ask them to try and look deeper. I can ask them to just disregard the obvious trolls. But I can also understand that those requests ring hollow when their preconceived notions get confirmed through clusterfucks like this.

What I really can do, though, is remain vigilant. Flag all arbitrarily hurtful posts. Engage and support those who feel marginalized. And even PM the "Trolls" to try and directly show them how their "fun" hurts us all.

I encourage all you beautiful duderinos to do the same.

When people look down on us, the response can't be hate, confirming all of their slander. It can only to be to show them exactly how horribly wrong they are.

I second this advice.

There are people here that I disagree with on many things, but I know they are genuine in their interest in discussion and care about this site. They often go that extra mile to actually engage even when I feel they may be misguided. There are many different people here, and as Giant Bomb has tried to grow, that diversity has grown with it. Unfortunately, factors remain to deter it and even push out many already here, and we cannot allow them to win. We cannot allow them to represent this community.

We must show more consideration and outreach than hate and dismissal. This is our little corner of the Internet, and we must continue to do more to make it the kind of environment for discussion and fun we desire it to be.

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#6 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@counterclockwork87 said:

@fiercedeity said:

@counterclockwork87 said:

@cabbagesensei said:

One of my fears is if Giant Bomb decides to publicly talk about the applicants' demographics, and it's revealed that little to no minorities or women applied, some people will say "See! We were right." They will casually ignore that the tone and atmosphere created by some (vocal) people in this community might keep minorities and women from applying in the first place.

I'm a minortiy, 100 percent hispanic first generation American (just to give an example my father was born in the Dominican Republic). I applied to work at Giant Bomb as a producer and I must say I was incredibly qualified as I've worked in television as a producer on things WAY bigger than Giant Bomb for a few years now. While Drew and Vinny were going to E3 I was producing content at the GRAMMYs (not diminishing their work of course!). Only reason I applied to GB is because I love the guys there even though it may be a "step down" from big time television. All that said, and despite my really good resume/reel I knew I had no shot...I KNEW someone from the inner circle of game journos would get the job. Why did I apply then? Because for a second I thought Jeff really wanted FRESH BLOOD, I really thought he meant it. Kind of like when they make a new Superman movie and they ask people what do they want an established star or a fresh face...lots of times people ask for a fresh face which is why Brandon Routh and Henry Cavill got those roles. Sometimes you just want someone new and I thought maybe that's what Giant Bomb was looking for. I have no ill will towards the new hires, I actually quite like Dan Ryckert...but I still find Giant Bomb comes off badly making this hire out to be more than it was every going to be. They should've just hired Dan and Jason and never made their hiring practices public on the forums....I doubt this would be happening if they just did this like when they hired Patrick (even though he got his fair share of hate, it wasn't for this reason).

If you came across as being this condescending in your resume, I can see why they wouldn't have considered you. Or, they could have simply considered you overqualified.

Jesus, I said nothing wrong, I love Giant Bomb with all my heart...I don't know why you think I have anything against what they've done.I'm not bitter about not getting hired, I have it pretty good, just putting my story out there.

This forum really is toxic. There are places far bigger and more important than Giant Bomb in the media relm but because I grew up with these guys from the GameSpot days I thought I'd just give it a try.

I think I'm done here...as I can't even be honest without people trying to cut me down now.

Goodbye GB forums (for now), I'll still subscribe and can't wait to see Dan on the next QL.

Don't go, duder! I share your concern about how toxic many people are being about this, but there are plenty of us interested in actually talking to you and making this place enjoyable. Unfortunately, this thread does seem like a bad place for avoiding people's wrath or dismissal. Still, on many other topics and threads, things are alright, if not even rather good next to many other places.

I hate that I have to kind of qualify it like that, but the staff, moderators, and many commenters are doing the best they can. We all care about Giant Bomb and want this to be a cool place for all kinds of duders.

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#7 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -

@marokai: This is definitely part of what I was talking about in my recent thread about basic respect. To have a chance at co-existence and discussion, we establish basic levels of consideration and rules for being around others, and on Giant Bomb, those are embodied specifically in the rules and more generally in the underlying culture here. One of our continued challenges is when gender or social criticism are at all involved; things can quickly get out of hand and many otherwise decent folks show the worst that they can offer.

In this particular case, I do believe we would be remiss to not recognize that it has been relatively one-sided. I think it's reasonable for us to lament how out of hand things have been, and the overreacting here has made a lot of very little. A few people should be able to ask about diversity and not have things descend into what happened today. Clearly this is a real challenge for our community.

Now, have said that, we would be wise in the long term to pursue more reasonable dialogue amongst us on more difficult topics. I believe we have seen improvement in this regard as people have gotten more used to topics like sexism and some destructive people have left, but we still have a ways to go in being able to discuss it with the same level of courtesy we are able to discuss the latest RPGs.

None of this is particularly easy for folks; that's relatively obvious. And with that in mind, we have to pursue more effective ways to communicate with each other. These are topics that will continue to be brought up for years to come; so, the sooner we can figure out how to best have decent discussions on more difficult topics, the better off we'll be.

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#8 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@extomar said:

@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

What the hell?

Usually I'd say that I see "some mistakes on all sides", but really, all of this so far seems relatively one-sided. I mean, Twitter is Twitter. It's sad to see some of what's going on there, but what matters most to me is how we actually interact here on Giant Bomb. And it's absurdly one-sided. A few people have said they are kind of disappointed or may have concerns about diversity, and dozens of dozens of folks are flipping out about it. That is -insane-.

You might have missed some of the deleted tweets.

Who cares? They can have their opinion on Twitter. The issue is how people FLIPPED OUT HERE and it was absurd how one sided it was and how much rage was still being thrown around. None of the GB staff should put up with that crap least of all Jason or Dan.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are more hung up on Twitter than on the actual nonsense happening -here-. Not Tumblr or Twitter, but here. Very few people have expressed any reservations or concerns(myself one of them), but you've seen multiple locked threads of mad people complaining that anyone would dare talk about diversity.

Dan and Jason don't deserve this. Regardless of any reservations about the hiring, they're here, and I hope they do a great job. And I would hope they might be able to wade into the forums and enjoy it. Initially Dan was doing that before people went nuts. Now, I wouldn't blame him and Jason if they decided to maybe take a break from the forum and let things settle for a while before trying to engage again.

Heck, I almost feel like taking a break, too. ha. I mean, when even some mods are part of the unfortunate response, it gives a crazy dynamic to it. I really appreciate all @rorie is doing to manage this as best as possible. He has at times felt a bit aloof to me, but man, he has gotten down and dirty with all this. It's rather encouraging, and it reminds me of the undercurrent of decency which keeps Giant Bomb a generally good and fun place to be.

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#9 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@hailinel said:

@bobafettjm said:

Holy...I go to work for the day and everything is way out of hand....

I am confused as to why hiring them is a big deal? I did not realize a job had to be held for a person of a certain gender or race, here I thought it was based on qualifications.

Short version:

A couple of female journalists on Twitter stated displeasure at Giant Bomb hiring more white guys. They received a flood of hateful tweets in response, which were subsequently blamed on the Giant Bomb community, but maybe came from 4chan and Reddit(?). So the staff has been fighting fires all day, as the hateful people are not representative of the community, but conversation spread here over Giant Bomb's hiring practices and related topics.

Dan and Jason are unfortunate bystanders in this discussion. Otherwise it's been a mess and I could not hope to summarize everything that's happened properly.

Don't forget the actual stuff here. I know you've seen it, as well. Even before some female journalists weighed in, a few members here expressed some disappointment at the picks and asked questions about diversity, and people went nuts on them. People mocked them and told them to leave. People lamented that -they- were the ones ruining Giant Bomb, not them. Some mods even talked as though they wouldn't -allow- discussion of diversity or disappointments in threads about the hires. And despite closing multiple threads, you've still had a cavalcade of people lamenting that anyone might bring up diversity and bullying people to just keep their feelings to themselves.

Plenty of this has been right here at home and unfortunately representative of parts of our community. Fortunately, Jeff and Patrick condemned such nonsense and made it clear that people trying to "defend" Giant Bomb were not genuinely defending it. The stuff on Twitter might have spurred greater anger and mockery here in the forums, but all too much came simply from right here.

I still haven't seen anyone say they somehow dislike Dan and Jason just because they might feel a bit disappointed. I may have concerns about diversity, but I welcome them to the team. People will get used to them and enjoy their entertainment. But the impassioned and at times angry dismissal and mockery of any users daring to express themselves honestly about some level of concern or disappointment is the biggest shame amongst this whole thing.

I'm sure 4chan, Reddit, and NeoGAF have had their hands in all this, but plenty of it rests right on Giant Bomb members here. We naturally see little bits of it over time when participating in many threads and streams, but moments like this make it even more prominent in a way we can't avoid.

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#10 Edited by TruthTellah (9160 posts) -
@clonedzero said:

@truthtellah: I can't speak for the messages that get moderated that i dont see, but around here it hasn't really been that bad. Alittle too much snark here, some condescending phrasing there, ect. Nothing too bad. But again, stuff has been moderated so who knows.

Don't wag your finger and go "shame on you all!", cus well. What...?

I don't know what to tell you, man. I think the cavalcade of locked threads pretty much speak for themselves. Members have been mocked, taunted, bullied, and threatened for simply saying they might be disappointed in the pick or feel like bringing up diversity. Not even just by commenters in a few cases. I've been mocked and threatened, and while a lot has indeed been deleted, plenty remains to show the absurd nonsense which has prevailed in the unnecessary "defense" of Giant Bomb.

It's one of the more embarrassing days I've seen around here, reminiscent of the craziness that happened after Ryan apologized for using a slur on stream. There are clear problems which have to be better addressed in the future. I know myself and others have done what we can to improve things, and it sounds like the staff learned a bit here about the continued challenges we face. The Giant Bomb community is full of a lot of great people, but certain things can bring out the worst in this otherwise decent place.

The staff and many commenters want GB to be a welcoming place for all kinds of gamers, but we still have a ways to go.

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