@Amorfati: You're not going to be able to successfully use logic on a person who thinks "Well, if we expand liberty, won't we have to keep expanding it? And that's bad, right?" Simply put, this is a person who cherishes the status quo, and no amount of argumentation will change his position.
" It itself isnt that bad, but it is true that it's a gateway drug, Ive seen plenty of people who used to smoke it start doing some hardcore drugs. "
1: Person A smoked weed. 2: Person A now does heroin. 3: 1 caused 2.
This is faulty logic. I take a shit and then I have a shower, that does not mean that taking a shit causes me to have a shower.
No, those are two completely different things. Someone smokes weed on a semi regular basis. That person gets bored of it and wants an even stronger high... because that's what your body does, it becomes resistant to effects. Then that person looks for harder, more addicting drugs. Its the sterotypical plunge into madness. Have you ever seen Requiem for a Dream!?
" It itself isnt that bad, but it is true that it's a gateway drug, Ive seen plenty of people who used to smoke it start doing some hardcore drugs. "
1: Person A smoked weed. 2: Person A now does heroin. 3: 1 caused 2.
This is faulty logic. I take a shit and then I have a shower, that does not mean that taking a shit causes me to have a shower.
No, those are two completely different things. Someone smokes weed on a semi regular basis. That person gets bored of it and wants an even stronger high... because that's what your body does, it becomes resistant to effects. Then that person looks for harder, more addicting drugs. Its the sterotypical plunge into madness. Have you ever seen Requiem for a Dream!? "
A shitty movie is not an argument in favour of putting people in jail for making choices you wouldn't make.
(See what I mean, Amorfati? Logic doesn't matter to this person or their argument.)
" It itself isnt that bad, but it is true that it's a gateway drug, Ive seen plenty of people who used to smoke it start doing some hardcore drugs. "
1: Person A smoked weed. 2: Person A now does heroin. 3: 1 caused 2.
This is faulty logic. I take a shit and then I have a shower, that does not mean that taking a shit causes me to have a shower.
No, those are two completely different things. Someone smokes weed on a semi regular basis. That person gets bored of it and wants an even stronger high... because that's what your body does, it becomes resistant to effects. Then that person looks for harder, more addicting drugs. Its the sterotypical plunge into madness. Have you ever seen Requiem for a Dream!? "
A shitty movie is not an argument in favour of putting people in jail for making choices you wouldn't make. (See what I mean, Amorfati? Logic doesn't matter to this person or their argument.) "
Alright, youre just an idiot, I wasnt even the person arguing about liberties and legalizing other drugs...
and the movie is just an example of how people fall down a slippery slope of drugs, It happens all the time I KNOW PEOPLE WHOM HAVE DONE IT.
@Whisperkill: It's wonderful that the way you wish to help those people is by incarcerating them. I grew up in a neighbourhood full of crackheads, in a city where people caught selling and smoking it are thrown in jail, and guess what: people still smoke crack! Criminalizing personal choice will not solve the problem of people making poor choices for themselves.
And no, I'm not an idiot. You haven't presented any evidence to make such a claim.
" @Whisperkill: It's wonderful that the way you wish to help those people is by incarcerating them. I grew up in a neighbourhood full of crackheads, in a city where people caught selling and smoking it are thrown in jail, and guess what: people still smoke crack! Criminalizing personal choice will not solve the problem of people making poor choices for themselves. And no, I'm not an idiot. You haven't presented any evidence to make such a claim. "
What the hell are you talking about? I haven't mentioned anything about people getting put in jail, all I said is that marijuana leads to other drugs... which it does and I don't think I need to present evidence of that.
It should be legal in homes, and certain establishments with a heavy tax just like tobacco.
I am personally deathly allergic to THC that which is found in Pot, so it being smoked willy nilly isn't okay, Outside is fine i've been around folks that have smoked pot but it was outside and it didn't not affect me, only within confined areas is it a problem, or if i were to smoke it my self. Its much the same with tobacco my nephew is allergic to it and i try to smoke around him as little as possible.
@Whisperkill: You justified someone else's argument against legalization of marijuana by presenting the fallacious "gateway" argument. And no, you haven't really provided any real evidence of the gateway phenomenon. You presented anecdotal evidence, and then invoked a Hollywood movie, neither of which are proof of either of the following clauses: that use of marijuana leads to the use of other substances, or that marijuana should be criminalized because it leads to the use of other substances. Whether or not you are advocating the second claim, the first claim remains unproven.
Why do people even want to legalize it so badly? Becuase you don't people judging you as pothead, like cigarette users are never judged as white trash? I think it is fine if you want to use it, and it should be decriminalized to some measurable extant, but the essays that have been written in this message board alone make me ask - why do you care so much?
I'm not really into it, but if it was legalized. crime rate would be reduced, the economy would go up and all of the chip company's would be very happy :P
" Why do people even want to legalize it so badly? Becuase you don't people judging you as pothead, like cigarette users are never judged as white trash? I think it is fine if you want to use it, and it should be decriminalized to some measurable extant, but the essays that have been written in this message board alone make me ask - why do you care so much? "
The same reason why I care about liberty in every other aspect of life, because no one should have the right to stop anyone else from doing anything that isn't coercive. Putting a person in jail for bad habits doesn't solve any problems.
" What the hell are you talking about? I haven't mentioned anything about people getting put in jail, all I said is that marijuana leads to other drugs... which it does and I don't think I need to present evidence of that. "
When somebody speaks against the status quo why is that they need to present a mountain of evidence yet when someone affirms the status quo nobody applies the same standards?
Yes, I think you do need to present evidence for that.
" @Whisperkill: You justified someone else's argument against legalization of marijuana by presenting the fallacious "gateway" argument. And no, you haven't really provided any real evidence of the gateway phenomenon. You presented anecdotal evidence, and then invoked a Hollywood movie, neither of which are proof of either of the following clauses: that use of marijuana leads to the use of other substances, or that marijuana should be criminalized because it leads to the use of other substances. Whether or not you are advocating the second claim, the first claim remains unproven. "
...Yeah I did use the gateway argument. But you were accusing me of something else, you had me confused with another person in this topic.
And I know I didn't provide any evidence. But I never claimed I did. I only said I don't think I need to.
...Also stop trying to act all fucking intellectual like your in some court case or debate, you just make yourself look like a pretentious douche.
" Why do people even want to legalize it so badly? Becuase you don't people judging you as pothead, like cigarette users are never judged as white trash? I think it is fine if you want to use it, and it should be decriminalized to some measurable extant, but the essays that have been written in this message board alone make me ask - why do you care so much? "
The same reason why I care about liberty in every other aspect of life, because no one should have the right to stop anyone else from doing anything that isn't coercive. Putting a person in jail for bad habits doesn't solve any problems. "
That's nice. Good luck getting that passed. But what confuses me is there are political parties (More so in Europe) that are devoted to legalizing marijuana. Call me silly, but one of the benifits of having liberty and making choices is choosing how to use your time effectively. PS Don't get me wrong. I'm not your enemy.
@Whisperkill: It is a debate, and it is a court case. Just not a formal debate in a formal court. Giant Bomb is a forum for discussion, and we are discussing a topic from different perspectives, so yes, it is a debate, that is the very definition of the word "debate". I use the words I choose to use, and I don't really care if you think I'm pretentious or not. The point I made to amorfati is that people arguing against freedom of choice are not going to be willing to embrace logic, it wasn't about anyone in particular it was about all people who oppose freedom of choice.
You presented the gateway argument in a debate about the legalization of marijuana. If you don't think the gateway argument is related to the question of marijuana's legalization, then why did you present it in this debate?
" Why do people even want to legalize it so badly? Becuase you don't people judging you as pothead, like cigarette users are never judged as white trash? I think it is fine if you want to use it, and it should be decriminalized to some measurable extant, but the essays that have been written in this message board alone make me ask - why do you care so much? "
The same reason why I care about liberty in every other aspect of life, because no one should have the right to stop anyone else from doing anything that isn't coercive. Putting a person in jail for bad habits doesn't solve any problems. "
That's nice. Good luck getting that passed. But what confuses me is there are political parties (More so in Europe) that are devoted to legalizing marijuana. Call me silly, but one of the benifits of having liberty and making choices is choosing how to use your time effectively. PS Don't get me wrong. I'm not your enemy. "
No, I think you're right. The concept of a Marijuana Party is the direct manifestation of John Locke's (and therefore classical liberalism's) argument against freedom of choice as it relates to narcotics. I don't believe marijuana is the first free choice that should be legalized, but it is definitely one of many. Hierarchies of liberty are another matter entirely, and I'd be happy to make a contribution if you started a thread on that topic.
I've noticed that people who are against it always seem angry at the world, or look down on people who smoke weed. It's all about peace and happiness with your fellow people! Besides all the years that I have been part of the scene, I have never EVER met an angry stoner. I sure have met my fair share of alcoholic wife beaters though.
Smoke weed everyday
Oh yeah and it grows in the wild NATURALLY! I say if it comes from the ground, it was meant for me.
I've lost someone through the effects the drug has the potential to have. Not that they are dead, just suffering from severe psychological issues in a hospital they're not likely to get out of any time soon.
If I could choose one thing to rid the world of, marijuana would be pretty much be top contender.
Never realised drugs were so common in the USA. Pretty frightening to be honest, but then again I grew up in a small village in northern Sweden so I'm not used to seeing drugged people. Voted B
@Suicrat: Then I think we agree entirely, even if (and I think) we are from completely different ends of the spectrum politically. What is important is that we have debates though I do not think this by any means the most important one. Disregard my previous comment, as it was more related to my disdain for the elitism that is present among some marijuane proponents. I shouldn't have said elite. More like when proponents debate this, and only this, when there are more important matters.
All drugs of every variety should be legal, then people would know exactly what they're getting and how strong it is, and people should be allowed to be in control of what poisons they choose to ingest, there's no reason why some of these poisons (alcohol and tobacco) should be legal and others shouldn't. I can't see how getting shit-faced is any better, or worse than getting stoned
" I've lost someone through the effects the drug has the potential to have. Not that they are dead, just suffering from severe psychological issues in a hospital they're not likely to get out of any time soon. If I could choose one thing to rid the world of, marijuana would be pretty much be top contender. "
A woman died because she drank too much water once...
I feel for your friend but that doesn't mean marijuana should disappear or be illegal. Everything has the potential to cause harm. Marijuana's potential for harm is significantly lower than most things including caffeine.
" @AlexB: And if it's not addictive, why smoke it when you know it's harmful? "
*Sigh* 1. There has never been a single Marijuana related death EVER. IE No one has ever died of a Marijuana overdose because that is impossible. 2. Knowing that it's harmful doesn't make it addictive. Fail logic much. 3. You could ask the same about alcohol. Why drink if you know it's harmful? 4. Again repeating myself, NOTHING CHEMICALLY INSIDE OF MARIJUANA HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE ADDICTING. Your logic makes not one bit of sense. "
No need to get pissed, not everybody knows everything there is to know about a drug. "
Well, you should know your topic before trying to prove a point.
" I've lost someone through the effects the drug has the potential to have. Not that they are dead, just suffering from severe psychological issues in a hospital they're not likely to get out of any time soon. If I could choose one thing to rid the world of, marijuana would be pretty much be top contender. "
A woman died because she drank too much water once... I feel for your friend but that doesn't mean marijuana should disappear or be illegal. Everything has the potential to cause harm. Marijuana's potential for harm is significantly lower than most things including caffeine. "
Family, but thanks. It's pointless trying to convince me otherwise, there's a good difference between living vicariously and first hand experience.
@Lashe: Well, I agree with you there. I've lost friends and family to the effects of various drugs but most of those are already illegal and extremely dangerous. I can see where you're coming from, though.
I'm indifferent, I don't smoke it, nor do any of my close friends so it wouldn't bother me either way. People are going to do what they want if it's legal or not.
" No, people who smoke marijuana can go fuck themselves. If it were up to me.... I would make cigarettes illegal as well, but that's a different issue. "
I don't like emos or country music, so I want to make those things illegal.
" Why do people even want to legalize it so badly? Becuase you don't people judging you as pothead, like cigarette users are never judged as white trash? I think it is fine if you want to use it, and it should be decriminalized to some measurable extant, but the essays that have been written in this message board alone make me ask - why do you care so much? "
Lots of people who argue for its legalization oppose drug use. However, not liking something does not mean it should be illegal. I care strongly about this issues for the following reasons:
1) It is unbelievably expensive 2) The government has no business telling me what I do to my body 3) The government has no business telling me what I can or cannot sell 4) The government has no business telling me what I can do on my own property 5) Even though the government has no business legislating my lifestyle, there are far more harmful things than marijuana. 6) People spend some of their most precious years behind bars because of having the wrong type of vegetation in the possession 7) It gives criminals power by creating a black market 8) It doesn't even stop people from doing it
Those are very serious issues that everyone should care about.
if it gets legalized, it gets corporate. it gets corporate there's more of it. there's more of it it gets cheaper, not to mention the quality would probably go up. so yeah i'm all for it
" To legalize marijuana would be retarded. It is a mind-altering drug and is harmful. People have been giving marijuana far too much slack these days. "
"Mind-altering drug"? Painkillers interact with the mind. Also, to what extent is it harmful?
Why is it that some people are so willing to fight against their own freedom? Mascohism? To spite others? Hatred?
" To legalize marijuana would be retarded. It is a mind-altering drug and is harmful. People have been giving marijuana far too much slack these days. "
"Mind-altering drug"? Painkillers interact with the mind. Also, to what extent is it harmful? "
Having a stressful event is also mind altering. If something happens, and you become angry, your mind is certainly altered.
@TheGreatGuero: You said marijuana alters the mind, and that it's crazy that people want such a thing to be legal. I asked you how the fact that marijuana alters the mind has any relation to whether or not people should be incarcerated for using or selling it. That is exactly what you said (as I interpreted it), and if it's not, I urge you to clarify, so I can interpret your words correctly.
" I've lost someone through the effects the drug has the potential to have. Not that they are dead, just suffering from severe psychological issues in a hospital they're not likely to get out of any time soon. If I could choose one thing to rid the world of, marijuana would be pretty much be top contender. "
I agree Lashe, in a perfect world. I hate the stuff and yes, there are people will have a psychotic event from it, but more won't. We can't make something illegal just because it has a negative consequence on some. If so, we need to ban gambling, driving, skydiving ......... life is risk and we must assume personal control of that risk. Maybe some people should be able to test the product on themselves under controlled circumstances to see if they have issues with it, sort of like an allergy test.
But agreed, if I could rid the world of drugs I would as well. I won't even socialise with people I know are users.
I don't know if it's changed recently but here in Canberra there are more lax cannabis laws.
I think the current legislation is that the AFP can issue a Simple Cannabis Offence Notice (about a $100 fine) for possession of two cannabis plants (excluding all hydroponically or artficially grown cannabis plants) or up to 25g of dried cannabis for personal use only.
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